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Old November 18th, 2012, 10:18 AM   #1
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Asian Y-DNA Haplogroup L : People and Languages


Population Genetics has no doubt presented a fresh new perspective to studying people and history. It also lends an insight in to how people dispersed and formed in the past. While a lot of us try to use it to confirm our prejudices - some use it to expand their awareness of the world around them.

I like observing people and finding out what makes them who they are. The set theory is a nice way to understand human beings. All of us have a lot of identities and some qualities may intersect with population groups from far off while others may differentiate us from people who are closer home.

This thread is about the Asian Y-DNA Haplogroup L. Y-DNA = male lineage.

It originated around 25-30 thousand years ago and has spread far and wide since then. Today it is present in people as diverse as the Kalash of Pakistan, Chechens of Chechenya, Syrians of Al-Raqqah, and the Druze people from Israel and Lebanon, apart from of course India - where this Y-DNA Haplogroup originated.

An interesting thing about L male lineage is that it may be linked to the origin and spread of the Dravidian languages - the beginnings of the Dravidian languages are still a puzzle for linguists around the world.

So what are your thoughts on Haplogroup L and the various people in which it is found.

Related Links ~

Haplogroup L (Y-DNA) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Family Tree DNA - L - The Y-Haplogroup L Project

ISOGG 2012 Y-DNA Haplogroup L

Learning Center :: Genebase Tutorials

Y haplogroup L

Turkish Dna, Research of Haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T

haplogroup L, the rarest in Europe

Related Threads ~

http://www.historum.com/asian-histor...ravidians.html

http://www.historum.com/asian-histor...test-news.html

http://www.historum.com/asian-histor...ley-roses.html

http://www.historum.com/asian-histor...abitation.html
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Old November 18th, 2012, 10:49 AM   #2

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The Siddi are the ones that show the higher proportion... that's odd, considering that they were originated from Eastern African slaves.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 11:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank81 View Post
The Siddi are the ones that show the higher proportion... that's odd, considering that they were originated from Eastern African slaves.
Actually you are a very keen observer Frank 81. So we can be very sure that the Y-DNA Haplogroup L can result in a Black/Negroid phenotype.

Your favorite Anthropology blogger Razib did a nice post about the ethnogenesis of the Siddis last year ~

Quote:
We estimate that the admixture between the African ancestors of the Siddis and neighboring South Asian groups probably occurred in the past eight generations (∼200 years ago), consistent with historical records.
On the genetic structure of Afro-Indians | Gene Expression | Discover Magazine

According to the blog post the autosomal DNA of the Siddis is African, Indian, plus European. mtDNA is African, West and East Eurasian, and South Asian. While the Y lineages are African and South Asian.

Would you have any information about the link of Y lineage L to the Indus Valley Civilization and the Dravidian languages?
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:28 PM   #4

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I'm looking for studies on genetics of IVC, but I'm not able to find something interesting. However, burials of IVC people exist, I wish more important studies were done on the subject soon.

Whatever the case, from my point of view mithocondrial DNA is as important as Y-DNA in order to clarify the demographic past of any given region. But for some reason, authors and people in general insist on focusing around the later only. And this is missleading.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 03:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank81 View Post
I'm looking for studies on genetics of IVC, but I'm not able to find something interesting. However, burials of IVC people exist, I wish more important studies were done on the subject soon.
I'll try and update the thread whenever there is news available on the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank81 View Post
Whatever the case, from my point of view mithocondrial DNA is as important as Y-DNA in order to clarify the demographic past of any given region. But for some reason, authors and people in general insist on focusing around the later only. And this is missleading.
Actually it may be due to the fact that most popular bloggers on Anthropology are men. I don't really like missleading situations and as such we have to gather information from where it is available and arrive at our own conclusions ultimately.

Not just past but a combination of Y-DNA and mtDNA is effective in understanding the demographic present of a given region as well.

I am not able to understand the sub-divisions of different Male and Female Haplogroups beyond a point - as it puts a lot of strain on my brain and time. However, these sub-divisions are important in order to understand the intricacies involved with the peopling of the world.

As far as Y-DNA L is concerned, it is said that there are three important sub-clades.

L1 = found in India and Sri Lanka.

L2 = Mediterranean. Portugal to Turkey.

L3 = Pakistan.

Hg L2a: Lineages and Results of Y-DNA Testing for Surname CARRICO (and Variations)
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Old November 20th, 2012, 05:28 AM   #6

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I think it is difficult to connect the dravidian languages with L. In general it is difficult at all to link a haplotype with a language and probably it is as well wrong anyway. L originated, as it was said perhaps 25-30,000 ky BP. It is allways difficult to say where it happened. Recent destribution lets suppose, that it was in the Indus valley. This valley is surrounded by the Thar desert in the east and the mountains and deserts like the Kavir, Lut and Rigestan in the west, that limit these fertile valley. Together with haplotype T it is part of the *LT group which perhaps existed in the area alongside and in the recent Persian gulf and the Indus valley.

Dravidian languages today only exist in the South of India. Only Brahui is in the North but of younger origin. So it is unknown how much North these languages were spoken. There is just a southern branch of L reaching into the area of dravidian languages. But it is not sure whether it is a region of origin or a region where migration brought the L to.

Much more interesting is, that the region of the recent Dravidian languages is the region where the haplogroup H is strong. H developed perhaps 35,000 years BP. So if we would like to link a haplogroup with the Dravidians, it had to be H.

But we have a big problem here. How old is Dravidian and where did it evolve? there are some suggestions, some hypotheses, but nothing is certain. Dravidian shall be part of Nostratic. How old is Nostratic? We can go back perhaps untill the neolithicum, perhaps till the last glacial maximum around 20,000 BP. But we don't come back till 25,000, 30,000 or even 35,000. So when Nostratic evolved (let us believe here it existed) and even more when Dravidian seperated from these group, the haplotypes were already mixed. Beside L, we had in India H, perhaps more C than today and perhaps F and D, perhaps some K. So the great linguistic families are difficult to connect with haplogroups. It is possible, that Dravidian evolved in the North of India, then the LT group could be evidence for an Elamite-Dravidian linguistic relation. But then the recent dravidians just share mostly the name with the original Dravidians.
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