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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:17 AM   #111
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But they weren't absorbed. The society was set up so that the Manchu would be distinct. And the Manchus were perfectly aware that other non-Han conquerors had been assimilated. So they set about codifying the Manchu language into writing, and kept it up. They ran the empire in Chinese for sure, but they certainly cultivated their own cultural and linguistic "Manchuness" seperate form the Chinese. It's a major reason the Qing eventually ran into trouble as ruler of China. They weren't just decreasingly successful in meeting European challanges. They were also seen precisely as not a Chinese dynasty by too many Chinese...
Very good point, which is why I believe that China started falling behind in 1644 with the Manchu conquest, though modern Chinese history textbooks like to put all the blame on the Opium Wars.

Simply put, the Manchus were afraid of being overthrown by the Chinese, so they didn't properly develop the country.

This is main reason for the Great Divergence.

Last edited by Bo_Wong; November 24th, 2012 at 01:27 AM.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:18 AM   #112
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I was just talking about their warfare capabilities.

I think manchus, mongols, koreans and japanese were never on par with Indians culturally or civilizationally.

Koreans and Japs were nothing significant till they received chinese culture .

In Asia, there is only two civilization that can maintain antiquity of essential things and that is China and India.

no other civilization could achieve this.
Just out of curiosity, do you feel that modern India's political system is preventing India from realizing its full potential?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:20 AM   #113
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Ok so where are manchu people these days with their own language and culture.

I had mentioned that they were absorbed in 20th century .

i know how they oppressed chinese people using racism.


Yeah, most of the assimilation happened after 1911.

From 1644-1911, though they had assimilated and integrated themselves into Chinese culture, they still weren't exactly Chinese.

Why else do you think the Chinese saw them as foreigners, leading to the White Lotus, Nien, and Taiping rebellions?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:24 AM   #114
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Does it bother anyone here that the Manchu conquest and their racist system of rule hasn't been considered as the main reason for the Great Divergence?

I've read the other theories (high-level equilibrium trap, the inflexible nature of Confucianism, etc.), and I just find all of them pretty hard to believe.

I mean, if it was something wrong with Chinese culture, then why was China doing so well and having a golden age under the Ming Dynasty?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:25 AM   #115
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Just out of curiosity, do you feel that modern India's political system is preventing India from realizing its full potential?
Had China remained devoted to its culture, I assure you that it would have become equal to US and so far as India is concerned, had Patel and his faction become prevalent in India , we would have been greater than Japanese in terms of economic and military potential.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:26 AM   #116
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Had China remained devoted to its culture, I assure you that it would have become equal to US and so far as India is concerned, had Patel and his faction become prevalent in India , we would have been greater than Japanese in terms of economic and military potential.
Which Patel? I'm sorry, I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to India's politics.

How about your views regarding Gandhi?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:29 AM   #117
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Does it bother anyone here that the Manchu conquest and their racist system of rule hasn't been considered as the main reason for the Great Divergence?

I've read the other theories (high-level equilibrium trap, the inflexible nature of Confucianism, etc.), and I just find all of them pretty hard to believe.

I mean, if it was something wrong with Chinese culture, then why was China doing so well and having a golden age under the Ming Dynasty?
Exactly, if Confucianism was so " inflexible" how we see miracles of Tangs, Songs and Ming dynasty during these times china was world power in all respects whereas even now when it is modern, it is not number one in any aspect.

I do not know about equilibrium trap but blaming confucianism is completely wrong.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:35 AM   #118
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Which Patel? I'm sorry, I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to India's politics.

How about your views regarding Gandhi?
no need to be sorry and you are nicest chinese I have ever come across perhaps not affected by CPC .

his name was Sardar Vallabh bhai patel and he was a hindu nationalist and was first deputy prime minister of India and just for information, he was the man who unified India in 1948 with his acumen.

He also took care of communists in india and prevented their take over but Nehru prevailed and adopting socialistic pattern of eceonomy led us to ruin and massive corruption.

I neither view Gandhi positively nor negatively but on the whole he was a bad man but an enemy always loves a weak man so brits and muslims made him such a giant.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:55 AM   #119
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no need to be sorry and you are nicest chinese I have ever come across perhaps not affected by CPC .

his name was Sardar Vallabh bhai patel and he was a hindu nationalist and was first deputy prime minister of India and just for information, he was the man who unified India in 1948 with his acumen.

He also took care of communists in india and prevented their take over but Nehru prevailed and adopting socialistic pattern of eceonomy led us to ruin and massive corruption.

I neither view Gandhi positively nor negatively but on the whole he was a bad man but an enemy always loves a weak man so brits and muslims made him such a giant.
Well, I have Chinese ancestry, but I was completely brought up and raised in the U.S., so in terms of culture and values, I'm American. I'm just visiting China right now.

Yeah, I had that same hunch about Gandhi. I've always felt that he was overrated because he didn't pose a threat to the Muslims or the West. In the U.S. we tend to demonize China mainly because in some ways, it's a threat.

Do you believe that reforms will work in India, or what about the chances of a revolution that completely changes the political system?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:59 AM   #120
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no need to be sorry and you are nicest chinese I have ever come across perhaps not affected by CPC .

his name was Sardar Vallabh bhai patel and he was a hindu nationalist and was first deputy prime minister of India and just for information, he was the man who unified India in 1948 with his acumen.

He also took care of communists in india and prevented their take over but Nehru prevailed and adopting socialistic pattern of eceonomy led us to ruin and massive corruption.

I neither view Gandhi positively nor negatively but on the whole he was a bad man but an enemy always loves a weak man so brits and muslims made him such a giant.

In college and medical school in the U.S., some of my brightest classmates had Indian ancestry, so I've always felt that India's political system was what was holding it back.

In some ways, India could use a strong leader who really gets things done, and builds the necessary infrastructure, only then, do I believe that democracy will be more viable. Because if a nation isn't at the appropriate stage of development, democracy can quickly turn into anarchy and chaos.

But then again, the U.S. will probably do everything that it can to prevent a strong leader from rising up in India.
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