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Old November 24th, 2012, 03:04 PM   #151

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Wow look at this link:

http://www.wsj-asia.com/pdf/opc_awar...TOUCHABLES.pdf

This is from a reputable source so i change my mind, Andhra Pradesh and TN along with Kerala will be majority Christian by 20 years. You are right avantivarman, Hinduism is pretty much finished.

Last edited by Pusyamitra; November 24th, 2012 at 03:46 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #152
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Isn't thailand which is affected by Indian culture the world sex capital?
Avantivarman is correct. The sex industry in Thailand (which, by the way, is largely limited to certain areas of Bangkok) arose as a result of the Vietnam War, during which US servicemen would be posted to Bangkok for R&R. The sex industry grew up to cater to them. Rural Thailand is conservative and traditional, as are the middle metropolitan class.

A large proportion of the sex workers come from the poor Thai north-eastern region. It is quite noticeable that a large proportion of the young Thai women who marry older foreign husbands also come from that region.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Avantivarman is correct. The sex industry in Thailand (which, by the way, is largely limited to certain areas of Bangkok) arose as a result of the Vietnam War, during which US servicemen would be posted to Bangkok for R&R. The sex industry grew up to cater to them. Rural Thailand is conservative and traditional, as are the middle metropolitan class.

A large proportion of the sex workers come from the poor Thai north-eastern region. It is quite noticeable that a large proportion of the young Thai women who marry older foreign husbands also come from that region.
Actually, most of non european countries have inferior political systems which mean that they can not enjoy good governance thus leading to such situation where they are more corrupt and cater to sex trade.

obviously this does not mean that on general people are more corrupt and if i am not wrong with all its sex tourism, Thailand is more prudish than many european countries.

atleast this is impression i get from thai films.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 10:46 PM   #154
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Well, I have Chinese ancestry, but I was completely brought up and raised in the U.S., so in terms of culture and values, I'm American. I'm just visiting China right now.

Yeah, I had that same hunch about Gandhi. I've always felt that he was overrated because he didn't pose a threat to the Muslims or the West. In the U.S. we tend to demonize China mainly because in some ways, it's a threat.

Do you believe that reforms will work in India, or what about the chances of a revolution that completely changes the political system?
Put down the islamophobia pipe. In 1646 100,000 chinese muslims in northwest china under muslim leaders 米喇印 and 丁國棟 revolted against the Qing to restore a Ming prince to the throne. It was 米喇印 who approached the prince and persuaded him to accept the throne. They were supported by the muslim khans in hami. They were all martyred in battle by 1650 with their leaders killed in action.

Several hundred muslims were martyred in Beijing including general 馬福綠, fighting for the qing against the westerners and japanese in the eight nation alliance in 1900.

(by the way although these muslims were not involved in this, the japanese suffered the highest casualty rate, higher than chinese casualties in their rush to get to beijing before the other allies. Chinese forces decimated them at beicang and peitang, the chinese army achieved it by shooting the allies at long range and killing many of them, and fleeing the battlefield as soon as they got close enough for hand to hand combat)

The ming and qing enlisted salar, hui, and dongxiang muslim soldiers dozens of times against their enemies. The Ming emperors Hongwu and Zhengde were islamophiles, and the ming emperors also built tons of mosques in nanjing and xi'an.

In world war 2, muslim cavalry terrorized japanese when they tried to enter northwest and central china.

Last edited by deke; November 24th, 2012 at 11:05 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 01:42 AM   #155
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@ Deke

since you are demanding written evidence for Indian names as well as vedic gods ( that they had such names atleast ) , you could do well to read about mitanni inscriptions which are carbon dated to 15 th century bce much earlier than shang oracle bones.

In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni (between Suppiluliuma and Matiwaza, ca. 1380 BC), the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked. Kikkuli's horse training text (circa 1400 BC) includes technical terms such as aika (eka, one), tera (tri, three), panza (pancha, five), satta (sapta, seven), na (nava, nine), vartana (vartana, round). The numeral aika "one" is of particular importance because it places the superstrate in the vicinity of Indo-Aryan proper as opposed to Indo-Iranian or early Iranian (which has "aiva") in general.
Another text has babru(-nnu) (babhru, brown), parita(-nnu) (palita, grey), and pinkara(-nnu) (pingala, red). Their chief festival was the celebration of the solstice (vishuva) which was common in most cultures in the ancient world. The Mitanni warriors were called marya (Hurrian: maria-nnu), the term for (young) warrior in Sanskrit as well;[1] note mišta-nnu (= miẓḍha,~ Sanskrit mīḍha) "payment (for catching a fugitive)" (Mayrhofer II 358).


do you notice that names like varuna and ashvins as vedic gods is fairly attested so all your homer and iliad comparison is faulty.

and this is before shang oracle bones.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 02:01 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
Put down the islamophobia pipe. In 1646 100,000 chinese muslims in northwest china under muslim leaders 米喇印 and 丁國棟 revolted against the Qing to restore a Ming prince to the throne. It was 米喇印 who approached the prince and persuaded him to accept the throne. They were supported by the muslim khans in hami. They were all martyred in battle by 1650 with their leaders killed in action.

Several hundred muslims were martyred in Beijing including general 馬福綠, fighting for the qing against the westerners and japanese in the eight nation alliance in 1900.

(by the way although these muslims were not involved in this, the japanese suffered the highest casualty rate, higher than chinese casualties in their rush to get to beijing before the other allies. Chinese forces decimated them at beicang and peitang, the chinese army achieved it by shooting the allies at long range and killing many of them, and fleeing the battlefield as soon as they got close enough for hand to hand combat)

The ming and qing enlisted salar, hui, and dongxiang muslim soldiers dozens of times against their enemies. The Ming emperors Hongwu and Zhengde were islamophiles, and the ming emperors also built tons of mosques in nanjing and xi'an.

In world war 2, muslim cavalry terrorized japanese when they tried to enter northwest and central china.


Are you Muslim or Hui by any chance?
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Old November 25th, 2012, 02:43 AM   #157

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Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
even now india has millions of such men and women and my point is that apart from clothing india has always been very prudish.

we never get to see such openly sexual content in dramas as in greeks nor do we see Sita talking about such things as Ayesha ( wife of muhammad did and if you read her talks you would realize hat muslims were not at all prudish ) .

there were only one people in ancient times who were more prudish than indians and it was chinese.
Disagree. There have been prudes, there have been the broad-minded ones, and there have been out-and-out hedonists, in any culture and any period of time in history. No single one tribe, or society, or culture, in any single one era, could claim any wholesale monopoly on prudishness, propriety or whatever disguised self-promoted, self-promoting concept of 'properness'.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 25th, 2012 at 03:06 AM.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 03:11 AM   #158
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Disagree. There have been prudes, there have been the broad-minded ones, and there have been out-and-out hedonists, in any culture and any period of time in history. No single one tribe, or society, or culture, in any single one era, have had any particular monopoly on prudishness, propriety or whatever disguised self-promoted, self-promoting concept of 'properness'.
of course no monopoly was there but the degree differed.

the asians ( indian, iranians , south east asians and chinese ) till recently were more prudish than africans and europeans and this i am basing on numbers.

while even America might have extra prudes but as compared to India and Malaysia they are less in number so we may say that Indians and SE asians are more prudish than americans in general.

Actually, the topic is related to continuity so I merely pointed out that ban on public kissing is since 200 bc atleast in india and even now you get to see few such scenes in Bollywood.

now for purpose of history, it is good that we know this or a general impression is that indians were " broad minded " and became prudish due to islam.

in my view we were never " broad minded " in that sense and if you wish you may read kalidas works like abhigyanashakuntalam and raghuvansam to have an indication of elite culture of ancient india.


it is also right that chinese were more prudish than Indians and I admire them for this.

while Indian art is somewhat open, chinese is not .
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Old December 27th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #159
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Confirmable written history starts around the Shang dynasty which starts around 1600 BC (though the first couple hundred year's confirmability is not complete), which puts Chinese written history at around 3500 years, 5000 years is assuming that the now still unconfirmed eras before that were all true as well. which is obviously somewhat dubious as a good part of it were rather mythical. though the Xia dynasty may not be. which would put Chinese history closer to 4000 years.

5000 years is stretching it, but not by that much.
i would think abit more than 4000 years to be the "proper" number
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Old December 28th, 2012, 08:58 AM   #160

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Civilizations and societies change gradually but dramatically over time. If an ancient Chinese person and a modern Chinese person tried speaking to each other, they would not understand each other. Nevertheless, I do find it impressive how old the Chinese cultures and languages (in one form or another) are.
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