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Old November 21st, 2012, 11:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by deke View Post
The xianbei conquered north china only, they ruled the northern wei. The xianbei then mixed with han people, so the founders of the sui and tang dynasty were mixed. They claimed their patrilineal lineage (father's side of family) was han and their mothers were part xianbei, the tang emperors traced their patrilineal line back to laozi to emphasize their hanness, since the patrilineage in china determines your ethnicity. In chinese culture you take after your father's ethnicity.
ok.... Got it.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 04:06 PM   #32
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Unbroken in the sense that all the dynasties, including the Mongol Yuan and Manchu Qing, accepted the notion that they're inheriting and continuing the mandate of heaven from the previous dynasties. and that there were very realistic continuation of culture. for example. Confucius remained the chief governmental guideline in all but the Yuan era (the Yuan were on and off on it.)
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Old November 21st, 2012, 04:44 PM   #33

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what does "unbroken chain of history "suppose to mean?China have been conquered by northern barbarians for quite many times and Bhuddism,communism and Capitalism are all invented by foreigners.It's meaningless.
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So,what do you think about buddhism and Communism?why converting to islam or Hinduism is not continuous but converting to buddhism is?And I think Greece and rome civilization is continuous enough.
"conquered by barbarians " don't mean the history of china was broken.

the culture still keep continuous in yuan dynasty and qing dynasty, the obviously tendency is the two dynasties tried to became the han chinese people's political system .

for example, in yuan dynasty (mongolia period), Kublai Khan named him as emperor not as khan, the officials system obey the previously standard, official history books obey the previously record way, and han chinese started yuan song (one kind of china operas) in the period, that had proved the culture and ethnic groups still keep continuous in the period.

the qing dynasty closed the china culture more complete, it had melt into han culture after qianlong emperor period, manchus think themselve as chinese today.


of course their conquere both made a lot of hurt to previous han chinese culture, but it was not broken, what you said about xianbei's invade and so on, it is same situation.

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buddhism had became different in china with the birthplace's buddhism, china main use the han buddhism, it melt with local religious just like taoism, if you compare the han buddhism and taoism, their ideas are very similar, and pay attention, buddhism had never occupied in area of political system, it never controll the whole country.

communism is same situation, if you compare with the USSR or the Germany with china , you will find the chinese communism is more local style, even very different with the birthplace.

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about the "continuous" standard, common the main ethinic group's continuous, culture continuous, text's continuous, political system's continuous, etc.


from these angles, china all kept the continuous, han chinese still exist, mandate of heaven idea had one complete thread, still use the chinese texts and kept the political system's development thread, so china history is continuous.

Last edited by fangqingming; November 21st, 2012 at 04:57 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 04:54 PM   #34

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Originally Posted by fangqingming View Post
"conquered by barbarians " don't mean the history of china was broken.

the culture still keep continuous in yuan dynasty and qing dynasty, the obviously tendency is the two dynasty tried to close near to the han chinese people's political system and culture.

for example, in yuan dynasty (mongolia period), Kublai Khan named him as emperor not as khan, the officials system obey the previously standard, official history books obey the previously record way, and han chinese started yuan song (one kind of china operas) in the period, that had proved the culture and ethnic groups still keep continuous in the period.

the qing dynasty closed the china culture more complete, it had melt into han culture after qianlong emperor period, manchus think they are chinese, and not the other way around.

of course their conquere both made a lot of hurt to previous chinese culture, but it was not broken, what you said about xianbei's invade and so on, it is same situation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

buddhism had became different in china with the birthplace's buddhism, china main use the han buddhism, it melt with local religious just like taoism, if you compare the han buddhism and taoism, their ideas are very similar, and pay attention, buddhism had never occupied in area of political system, mandate of heaven had never changed.

communism is same situation, if you compare with the USSR or the Germany with china, you will find the chinese communism is more local style, even very different with the birthplace.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

about the "continuous" standard, common the main ethinic group's continuous, culture continuous, text's continuous, political system's continuous, etc.


from these angles, china all kept the continuous, han chinese still exist, mandate of heaven idea had one complete thread, still use the chinese texts and kept the political system's development thread, so china history is continuous.
Chinese history is "somewhat" continuous from 221 b.c. Before that you cannot call it Chinese history. Prior to 221 b.c. the area we now know as China consisted of many states and many different cultures and ideas. Before 221 b.c. China consisted of many different histories.

Also, when China was but a khanate within the Mongolian Empire and but a state in the Kingdom of Manchuria the history belonged to the country they became a part of. The history of the area is undeniable but it is still, primarily, Mongolian and Manchurian history.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:05 PM   #35
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Chinese history is "somewhat" continuous from 221 b.c. Before that you cannot call it Chinese history. Prior to 221 b.c. the area we now know as China consisted of many states and many different cultures and ideas. Before 221 b.c. China consisted of many different histories.

Also, when China was but a khanate within the Mongolian Empire and but a state in the Kingdom of Manchuria the history belonged to the country they became a part of. The history of the area is undeniable but it is still, primarily, Mongolian and Manchurian history.
The mongols took the title of huangdi and tianzi, and they used a dynastic name. Thy held the title of khan separately, as leaders of the mongols and huangdi as leaders of china. There was no such entity as the "kingdom of manchuria". The manchu leaders took the title of khan over manchuria and mongolia, and the separate titles of huangdi and tianzi and a dynastic name when they took over china. They did not annex china to manchuria and governed the chinese provinces and manchuria as separate units.

When the austrian emperor took separate titles as emperor of austria and king of hungary the austrian empire became two united entities, austria and the kingdom of hungary, the history of hungary was not "primarily" austrian history.

King james i of england was both king of england and of the scottish throne, and ruled them as separate entities, great britain was not formed as one throne and kingdom until queen ann. Scotland and england were still two different countries, england did not become a state of scotland. The thrones were different.

The roman empire originated from the latin area in rome. Regardless of the fact that it absorbed other italic peoples, its history originated (according to romans) in 753 bc when it was just a city state. It then absorbed all the other italic peoples and non italics like the etruscans.

China originated from the shang dynasty, china's institutions, language and script originated from there, and the shang and zhou absorbed all the other peoples. Then the zhou split into many states, but the founders of those states were all zhou and shang subjects and peoples. They were not "barbarians" as the zhou called other peoples loke the dongyi.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:05 PM   #36

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Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
Chinese history is "somewhat" continuous from 221 b.c. Before that you cannot call it Chinese history. Prior to 221 b.c. the area we now know as China consisted of many states and many different cultures and ideas. Before 221 b.c. China consisted of many different histories.

Also, when China was but a khanate within the Mongolian Empire and but a state in the Kingdom of Manchuria the history belonged to the country they became a part of. The history of the area is undeniable but it is still, primarily, Mongolian and Manchurian history.
you started again.

before 221 b.c., although there have not one centralized country just like qin dynasty later, but all tributary states all obey the son of heaven of zhou dynasty.

as for you thought it is not china history, whole ancient china etiquette system origined from zhou's etiquette system, but you said that is not china history?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:17 PM   #37

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you started again.

before 221 b.c., although there have not one centralized countries just like qin dynasty later, but all tributary states all obey the son of heaven of zhou dynasty.

as for you thought it is not china history, whole ancient china etiquette system origined from zhou's etiquette system, but you said that is not china history?
I didn't start again. I have never changed. I won't fight with you but I will offer my opinion and there has not been any proof provided that has altered my opinion.

I do not believe in the Xia Dynasty. I do not believe that the Shang records show anything more than that people in the area had developed writing. I do not believe that the works of Sima Qian are any more than legend and should be equated to The Bible for reference.

Much of the area's early history was only discovered a little over 100 years ago in an apothecary shop in Beijing so I am suspect of Chinese history before the Qin Dynasty.

Regardless of how China influenced the Mongolians or the Manchurians, Chinese history stopped during those periods and those two conquerors influenced China much more than they are given credit for.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:25 PM   #38

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Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
I didn't start again. I have never changed. I won't fight with you but I will offer my opinion and there has not been any proof provided that has altered my opinion.

I do not believe in the Xia Dynasty. I do not believe that the Shang records show anything more than that people in the area had developed writing. I do not believe that the works of Sima Qian are any more than legend and should be equated to The Bible for reference.

Much of the area's early history was only discovered a little over 100 years ago in an apothecary shop in Beijing so I am suspect of Chinese history before the Qin Dynasty.

Regardless of how China influenced the Mongolians or the Manchurians, Chinese history stopped during those periods and those two conquerors influenced China much more than they are given credit for.
what is archaeology? oh, my god, you started again.

many bronze wares about shang and zhou dynasty had been discover .

PS: who told you pre-qin history only discovered in beijing? shang's archaeological relics main were discovered in main middle of china, guy.

Last edited by fangqingming; November 21st, 2012 at 05:33 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:42 PM   #39

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what is archaeology? oh, my god, you started again.

many bronze wares about shang and zhou dynasty had been discover .

PS: who told you pre-qin history only discovered in beijing? shang's archaeological relics main were discovered in main middle of china, guy.
I did not say all the history was discovered in Beijing. I said much and that is a fact. Archaeological discoveries tell us little about the history. They tell us much about what the people used to live, unfortunately the history is left out. Why do you think we are still searching for answers to how the Pyramids were built?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:42 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
I didn't start again. I have never changed. I won't fight with you but I will offer my opinion and there has not been any proof provided that has altered my opinion.

I do not believe in the Xia Dynasty. I do not believe that the Shang records show anything more than that people in the area had developed writing. I do not believe that the works of Sima Qian are any more than legend and should be equated to The Bible for reference.

Much of the area's early history was only discovered a little over 100 years ago in an apothecary shop in Beijing so I am suspect of Chinese history before the Qin Dynasty.

Regardless of how China influenced the Mongolians or the Manchurians, Chinese history stopped during those periods and those two conquerors influenced China much more than they are given credit for.
Much of egypt's early history was discovered 200 years ago in a small insignificant coastal village called rosetta.

I guess the pharaohs were all fakes.

Numerous artifacts, including the tomb of fu hao were found dating to shang times. They contained massive amounts of bronzes and other artifacts. Similar shang artifacts were found all over the yellow river region.

FU HAO'S TOMB

I will post this link once more because you deliberately ignored my earlier post in another topic.

Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 1, Introductory Orientations - Joseph Needham - Google Books

Quote:
It was commonly maintained that Ssuma Chhien could not have had adequate historical materials for his account of what had happened more than a thousand years earlier. One may judge of the astonishment of many, therefore, when it appeared that no less than twenty-three out of the thirty rulers* names were to be clearly found on the indisputably genuine Anyang bones (cf. the lists of Wang Kuo-Wei, 2 ; and Hopkins). It must be, therefore, that Ssuma Chhien did have fairly reliable materials at his disposal a fact which underlines once more the deep historical-mindedness of the Chinese and that the Shang dynasty is perfectly acceptable.
western historians consider the oracle bones as reliable sources. The only thing you are doing here is grinding your anti china ax by constantly repeating the same lines without sources.
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