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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:09 PM   #51

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Originally Posted by deke View Post
The last two kings of rome before it became a republic was also etruscan. Is roman history nonexistent during those periods since they were ruled by a foreigner?

Many emperors of rome were not of roman origin like Philip the Arab.

Ancient egypt was also under foreign rule during hyksos and nubian domination.
I cannot speak to something I have not studied.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:29 PM   #52

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Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
I do doubt the history of the Shang period. It is incomplete and cannot be proven to my satisfaction. As I said I do not doubt that it existed, I do not consider it to be part of China's history.
be honest, I think you are making trouble without a cause.

humanbeing development history is one step by step line, your requirement about to ask one very early period primary civilization dynasty to show enough information to modern country concept , it is very unreasonable and ignored the normal history development process , you only want to enjoy the happy about cut the history.

shang's relics are enough, although may can't clearly pointed out the whole shang dynasty's details, but enough to proved the shang is exist indeed and the culture and the technology and so on, is continuous with later zhou dynasty, especially texts shape.

please allow me to pointed this out , you even include the wrong point that zhou dynasty is not belong to china history in previous post, that is very incredible point, because everybody know that the confucius and confucianism's basis is just zhou dynasty's etiquette system.

Last edited by fangqingming; November 21st, 2012 at 06:40 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:33 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
Indian culture is the oldest culture and it is needless to dwell at length onthis as if anyone does not know about indian weddings, cow worship and sanskrit mantras all go to before1500 bc so i do not understand what some pathetic posters mean bysaying china isonly ancient culture that has any vitality even today.

to illustrate one example, VKSaraswat the head of icbm of india still worships in a manner that can betrac3ed to 1700 bc.



i am too busy these days and once ireturn, i will take up this topic in a more comprehernsive way
This is coming from someone who is proud of the caste system and wants to maintain it in modern india, boasting about racial purity. I don't know if that is more pathetic than using oral literature to date this caste system you are so proud of to thousands of years ago.

You are calling people pathetic for asking for actual solid evidence.

The hindu civilizations in southeast asia, in indonesia, malaysia, and the philippines voluntarily converted to islam so they could live in equality and shed the caste system, they didn't convert under force.

You keep on harping on and on about "tradtional" culture and how people should stick to it, you should not use any modern inventions and live life like 4,000 years ago as described in sanslrit mantras if you are so proud of that lifestyle.

The same mantras you describe as "evidence" for how old indian civilization is, also contain tales about hindu gods and supernatural hindu religious phenomena. Asking us to accept those as evidence is asking us to believe in hinduism, which none of us do except indians. If i accept the iliad as evidence for life in ancient greece, that means i accept zeus, poseidon and other greek gods as real.

What was tradition today was new thousands of years ago.

Last edited by deke; November 21st, 2012 at 06:50 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:40 PM   #54

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Originally Posted by fangqingming View Post
be honest, I think you are making trouble without a cause.

humanbeing development history is one step by step line, your requirement about to ask one very early period primary civilization dynasty to show enough information to modern country concept , it is very unreasonable and ignored the normal history development process , you only want to enjoy the happy about cut the history.

shang's relics are enough, although may can't clearly pointed out the whole shang dynasty's details, but enough to proved the shang is exist indeed and the culture and the technology and so on, is continuous with later zhou dynasty, especially texts shape.

please allow me to pointed out this, , you even include the wrong point that zhou dynasty is not belong to china history in previous post, that is very incredible points, because everybody know that the confucius and confucianism
's basis is just zhou dynasty's etiquette system.
My purpose here is not to make trouble it is to make people think. Nothing is as concrete as we would wish it to be. I want to believe that The United States is a completely benevolent country and only has as its credo to insure that all people have the possibility of freedom. Regardless of what I wish, this has often and sometimes rarely been the case. History books tell us one thing. Facts tell us another.

I believe that any time before the Qin Dynasty belongs to a different history. Before the Qin the area consisted of too many different countries and the land area was not always consistent.

Confucius was not even born in China. He was born in Lu which was a vassel of the state of Zhou but not a part of Zhou proper.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
My purpose here is not to make trouble it is to make people think. Nothing is as concrete as we would wish it to be. I want to believe that The United States is a completely benevolent country and only has as its credo to insure that all people have the possibility of freedom. Regardless of what I wish, this has often and sometimes rarely been the case. History books tell us one thing. Facts tell us another.

I believe that any time before the Qin Dynasty belongs to a different history. Before the Qin the area consisted of too many different countries and the land area was not always consistent.

Confucius was not even born in China. He was born in Lu which was a vassel of the state of Zhou but not a part of Zhou proper.
None of those vassal states were originally states. They used to be all fiefdoms with titles like duke, marquis, count, viscount etc., and paid fealty to the zhou king. After the apring and autumn period and into the warring states period, they broke off their alleigance to zhou and declared themselves kings of independent states. They were all originally zhou subjects.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:46 PM   #56

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
My purpose here is not to make trouble it is to make people think. Nothing is as concrete as we would wish it to be. I want to believe that The United States is a completely benevolent country and only has as its credo to insure that all people have the possibility of freedom. Regardless of what I wish, this has often and sometimes rarely been the case. History books tell us one thing. Facts tell us another.

I believe that any time before the Qin Dynasty belongs to a different history. Before the Qin the area consisted of too many different countries and the land area was not always consistent.

Confucius was not even born in China. He was born in Lu which was a vassel of the state of Zhou but not a part of Zhou proper.
lu= china's shandong province .

so, accroding your strange standard , qin is one vassel of the state of zhou and not a part of zhou proper too, so qin dynasty is not china too? but you had said qin dynasty is china in previous post.

don't you think your opinion is contradiction?

ps: you are tring to use the ancient middle-plain to mixing into the modern contry concept then deny the both concept legitimacy.

if you have any knowledge about china history, you should know there have not any mordern china concept in confucius's period, so your opinion about " confucius was not even born in China", it is even one definition of false at all.

Last edited by fangqingming; November 21st, 2012 at 06:52 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:56 PM   #57

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Originally Posted by fangqingming View Post
lu= china's shandong province nowdays.

so, accroding your strange standard , qin is one vassel of the state of zhou and not a part of zhou proper too, so qin dynasty is not china too? but you had said qin dynasty is china in previous post.

don't you think your opinion is contradiction?
Now it is China's Shandong Province but at that time it was not adjoined to China except through respect.

I do not think that at all. My opinion is completely valid because I back it up with reasons for my thinking. Your disagreement is only indicative of our opinions conflicting.

All periods of the area before the Qin were fragmented. One periods land was often not the next periods. The Warring States period is evidence of this fragmentation. Even since the Qin China has often been a fragmented nation. The China of the Song is not completely representative of the China of the Han. Given this fragmentation and disparity of Dynastic land masses I truly have to ask, what is China?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 07:06 PM   #58

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Just to throw another item into the mix, what was China during the Three Kingdoms Period? During a Civil War a country is divided and it rarely comes out of the war the same country that it went into the war as.

Which of these three kingdoms was China and what were the other two? Think about it. China is little different from The United States when it comes to many parts of their history. A country at war with itself is not a country.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 07:20 PM   #59

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Originally Posted by Bo_Wong View Post
You are aware that out of the 4 great classical novels in Chinese literature, 3 were written during the Ming? 水滸傳, 三國演義, and 西遊記?
To be fair, all three were in wide circulation in some forms before being canonized into the fictions they are now. The authors of these books technically were not entirely original.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 07:52 PM   #60

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
Now it is China's Shandong Province but at that time it was not adjoined to China except through respect.

I do not think that at all. My opinion is completely valid because I back it up with reasons for my thinking. Your disagreement is only indicative of our opinions conflicting.

All periods of the area before the Qin were fragmented. One periods land was often not the next periods. The Warring States period is evidence of this fragmentation. Even since the Qin China has often been a fragmented nation. The China of the Song is not completely representative of the China of the Han. Given this fragmentation and disparity of Dynastic land masses I truly have to ask, what is China?
Quote:
Just to throw another item into the mix, what was China during the Three Kingdoms Period? During a Civil War a country is divided and it rarely comes out of the war the same country that it went into the war as.

Which of these three kingdoms was China and what were the other two? Think about it. China is little different from The United States when it comes to many parts of their history. A country at war with itself is not a country.
so why did the american civil war belong to usa's history?

I think your most big problem is you mixed the three concepts into together and used them chaotic .

"civilization " \ "regime"\ " country"

"civilization continue" means the text keep continue, culture keep continue, the ethinic groups who build the civilization keep continue, language continue keep continue, etc.

history of civilization include the whole development of civilization.

"regime continue" means one person or one ethinic group built it, but no any regime can continue forever, common it always falled down quickly.

country is the modern concept, it is only one authority, sometimes the concept will mixed with regime or civilization.

china is not only one country, but also one civilization.(the OP had clearly pointed out .)

her text, culture, etiquette, ethinic group and so on, continue till now and keep influence to people, so china is still one continuous civilization, the point had not changed by regime changing. the dynasty changed from shang to zhou, or from tang to song, or from ming to qing, all viewed as regime change, not as civilization broken.

what you said about three kingdoms period, war states period, we only viewed them as regime changing, not as civilization breaking.

you lost the point, then lost the understand.

Last edited by fangqingming; November 21st, 2012 at 08:12 PM.
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