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Old December 7th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #51
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the countries like japan and korea which have history of 1500 years would call it very ancient but for me anything after Harsha is not ancient as we are not 1500 year old civilization but twice that age atleast so our standards must be high.

but the fact is that Bhoja could not have any sufficient technology or we would have seen 1,000s of temples in Mathura alone.
Yes, I am not disputing that Bhoja's text is not very ancient, nor he claims it is, it is a later compilation of vaastu vidya in the past, because much was lost by then. The chapter on machines(yantras) is not even the focal point of the work, most of the work deals with architecture. The fact is the machines Bhoja describes as existing in the past, many of them we now know for a fact existed, therefore the text is actually credible. We cannot then disregard a reference to a flying aircraft, especially when it also gives a description of its engine and flight instructions.

We really have no idea what kind of machines the ancient people had going back say 5000 years. If there were aeroplanes in 3000BCE, the only evidence we would have today would be a textual reference, no physical remains would survive. We cannot offhand ignore all these textual references. There is a lot of weird finds we find which do not fit our current ideas about our ancients, like ancient batteries, hot air balloons, or modern day like cities.

I have found a reference in the Charaka Samhita to a microscope. It gives a description of a microbe, describing it in very clear detail and then says "Otherwise invisible to the naked eye, but can be seen with a yantra" We cannot ignore references like this.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #52

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Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
as the topic tells i am curious to know that why despite having larger arable lands, greater forest resources and a similar population , indian civilization could not compete with chinese in technology, economy and military for last 2200 years that is since han era ?

please i request the posters to adopt a dispassionate attitude to this and it is central question as this is indeed intriguing that nation with such vast resources could not attain same level as china.


there would be some posters who would feel offended but the fact is

1. chinese were a lot better in technology than indians at any point of time

2. they created largest empires of humanity in pre modern age whereas india lacked such super large empires

3. chinese were never ruled by foreign people who could impose their language on their administration like indians saw in their history

and this is my earnest request to all that please do not make it an india bashing thread with cows, caste curry etc.

the reasons are much deeper than such external things and i would like to have them analysed in detail.



thank you.

I think the central theme on which the thread is based on - "China outsmarted India" is the topic of another thread itself. And first we have to proove that China indeed outsmarted India before starting this thread.

However from my experience on the forum I realized one thing - Comparing differant civilizations is like comparing applaes and oranges. They all are great, and it is futile to compare them with one another. Comparing differant civilizations give nothing except the satisfaction of the personal ego of belonging to the superior civilization. So I personally don't think that China outsmarted India and I also don't believe that India outsmarted China. The achievments of both the civilizations are not comparable.

However I do believe that althaugh India boasts some great achievments in differant fields, her performance is actually poor if for last 1000 - 1500 years. It is actually below the expectation from the country like India with vast amount of resources and opportunities.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #53
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I think the central theme on which the thread is based on - "China outsmarted India" is the topic of another thread itself. And first we have to proove that China indeed outsmarted India before starting this thread.

However from my experience on the forum I realized one thing - Comparing differant civilizations is like comparing applaes and oranges. They all are great, and it is futile to compare them with one another. Comparing differant civilizations give nothing except the satisfaction of the personal ego of belonging to the superior civilization. So I personally don't think that China outsmarted India and I also don't believe that India outsmarted China. The achievments of both the civilizations are not comparable.

However I do believe that althaugh India boasts some great achievments in differant fields, her performance is actually poor if for last 1000 - 1500 years. It is actually below the expectation from the country like India with vast amount of resources and opportunities.
Indian performance was good till 1200 ad and it certainly was more advanced than europe till that time but since then india has remained poorest performer among large civilizations.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #54

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apart from these, though records are lacking but we do have great literature and though we know about everything in common life from them, we do not get evidences for map making, compass and even military items like catapult.

also, there was no reason why indians did not mention mechanical clocks in works which neatly dealt with time .
This wasn't expected from the person like you who had thorough knowledge of Indian history.

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we do not get evidences for map making, compass and even military items like catapult.
IIRC, according to Buddhist(or may be Jain) records Ajatshatru (Contempory of Buddha) used catapaults and covered wagons (sort of battering rams) during his invasion on Republic of Licchavis.

Also we do have some evidances of the use of Compass. Althaugh it is questinable wether it was introduced by the chinese or developed by the Indians themselves.

As for the map making again there are evidances of it, althaugh they might not be as impressive as thri European counterparts. Infact some scholars believe that Indians might have knowledge of Cartograohy since the time of IVC.

Cartography of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:58 AM   #55
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This wasn't expected from the person like you who had thorough knowledge of Indian history.



IIRC, according to Buddhist(or may be Jain) records Ajatshatru (Contempory of Buddha) used catapaults and covered wagons (sort of battering rams) during his invasion on Republic of Licchavis.

Also we do have some evidances of the use of Compass. Althaugh it is questinable wether it was introduced by the chinese or developed by the Indians themselves.

As for the map making again there are evidances of it, althaugh they might not be as impressive as thri European counterparts. Infact some scholars believe that Indians might have knowledge of Cartograohy since the time of IVC.

Cartography of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I am fully aware of jain works talking about mahashilakantaka ( a form of stone thrower ) and rathamusala being used by the king ajatshatru in war against vrijji federation.

the problem is they only tell us that these threw stones and nothing more though rathamuslala was a great military machine which had swinging mace.


as for compass and maps, we are talking about classical times and not IVC .

one thing we must understand is that IVC achievements were discontinued like say in sculptures.


Prithviraj chauhan had as much subjects as the then japanese king and yet he had no catapults as to take fort at bhatinda he had to spend 13 months and garrison defending was just 1300 turk soldiers.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #56
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hina has a richer heritage when it comes to painting, although Mughal miniatures
I think the Ajanata cave paintings are very sophisticated and were more then 1000 years older than the Mughal ones.

And its lineage probably goes back to the Mauryans, etc.

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It should have evolved more. Like the Europeans did with the Greek and Roman styles in the renaissance.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:02 PM   #57
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Click the image to open in full size.
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The Chinese mixed this style with their own.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #58

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In regard to original question, I don't think that China overpassed India during the last two millenia.

There were ages when India was more ahead, and other when China was.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 08:46 PM   #59
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as for date of ajanta paintings earliest of them are dated to early satvahana times that is 100 bc to 50 ad and latest of them are of 700 ad so the average comes to some 1700 years older or 1300 years older than mughal paintings.

I think this painting from tamil nadu of pallava era ( 600-850 ) is even more impressive .


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the flowers have been brilliantly treated.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #60
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In terms of art, it is very subjective to say which is more sophisticated than another. Even in modern days we have art made with stick drawings, but that is obviously more modern than a Sistine chapel, so can we say that the modern stick drawing is more superior to the Sistine chapel or the Sistine chapel is more superior to the modern stick drawing? Subjective.
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