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Old January 22nd, 2013, 06:36 PM   #71

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Modernization doesn't have to correlate with military strength. The Qing were only concerned about modernizing the military, not with infrastructure, health care, education, or copying western organization and political systems.

Afghanistan was a third world country, it lacked health care, railroads, factories, and infrastructure, but it managed to defeat Britain in the Anglo Afghan wars.

The Qing did modernize the military and built arsenals which produced modern weapons. They created new provincial armies. Each province in China had the population of a European state and some of them were equal in size to European states. During the Sino French War, the Guangxi army and black flag insurgents were enough to hold off the French in Tonkin and the Huai army beat French attempts to conquer Taiwan. The war ended with a disastrous French retreat in Tonkin and failure to take Taiwan from China, even though the Krupp batteries on Taiwan were substandard, armed with non exploding munitions and most of the gunners fled from their batteries. In spite of corruption, the Qing armies could still fight with crap artillery.

Many of the artillery's munition were substandard not because of technological issues, but because of corruption. Corrupt officials would replace gunpowder and explosives with garbage, which turned explosive ordinance into just flying pieces of metal like 18th century cannonballs.

Westerners knew that the Qing only modernized the military and did not care about healthcare and did not have modern medical care. This was inconsequential to actually winning battles, it would only mean that alot of the wounded would die. This is why western observers thought the Qing would win the First Sino Japanese war.

The Qing forces lost because of poor morale and incompetent officers. The officers would disobey orders, file false reports and the soldiers would just run away and throw down their rifles when things went wrong. It didn't have anything to do with modernizing the entire country or even the fact that there was no national army, since each provincial army should have been enough to take on an average european sized country.

Its true that the Qing should have cared about other things like healthcare and infrastructure, but these had nothing to do with whether it won wars. It only meant that citizens were to suffer from substandard medical treatment, curable diseases, and traveling long distance sucked.
The Qing wasn't even close to modernizing their armies. Barely any weapons factories. Most of the their weapons were purchased and the Qing fleet always got outdated. In short, the Qing were behind Militaristic and in every area.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 09:38 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by emperor of seleucid View Post
The Qing wasn't even close to modernizing their armies. Barely any weapons factories. Most of the their weapons were purchased and the Qing fleet always got outdated. In short, the Qing were behind Militaristic and in every area.
For like the fiftieth time, how do you know all this? So far, all you've managed to do is make generalized statements without any factual data. Start backing up what you say with evidence. We're tired of doing your research for you.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:22 AM   #73
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The Qing wasn't even close to modernizing their armies. Barely any weapons factories. Most of the their weapons were purchased and the Qing fleet always got outdated. In short, the Qing were behind Militaristic and in every area.
Look up Jiangnan arsenal, Lanzhou Arsenal, and Hanyang Arsenal. They were all built by the Qing and manufactured modern repeating rifles and breech loading artillery. Your statements are incorrect.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 05:13 PM   #74

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Look up Jiangnan arsenal, Lanzhou Arsenal, and Hanyang Arsenal. They were all built by the Qing and manufactured modern repeating rifles and breech loading artillery. Your statements are incorrect.
Limited weapon producing does not equate to modernization.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 05:25 PM   #75

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For like the fiftieth time, how do you know all this? So far, all you've managed to do is make generalized statements without any factual data. Start backing up what you say with evidence. We're tired of doing your research for you.
This is your so called military modernization
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The program proved expensive: Li Hongzhang had wanted the Kiangnan Arsenal to produce breech loading rifles of the Remington type. Production finally started in 1871 and produced only 4,200 rifles by 1873, and these rifles were not only more costly than, but also far inferior to, the imported Remington arms. Shipbuilding efforts were also disappointing: the program consumed half of the arsenal's annual income but the ships built were at least twice as costly as comparable vessels available for purchase in Britain. The lack of material and human resources proved to be a formidable problem. The program was heavily reliant on foreign expertise and materials. The unavoidable growth in the number of foreign employees had made increased costs inevitable. Furthermore, officials were not even aware when the foreigners were not competent to perform the tasks that they had been hired to do. Laxity in procurement practices also contributed to escalating costs. Many opportunities for corruption existed in construction contracts and in the distribution of workers' wages.
Another area of reform targeted the modernization of military organization and structure. The most urgent reform was to reduce the Green Standard forces to a fraction of its size and to modernize the remainder. This was done in two provinces under the influence of Li Hongzhang, but the effort failed to spread.
Economic strengthening led to this:
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However, being government supervised, these enterprises could not escape from the ugly sides of government administration: they suffered from nepotism, corruption, and lack of initiative. Managers also found ways to siphon off profits in order to avoid the payment of official levies and exactions. They also monopolized business in their respective areas, and by thus discouraging private competition, they impeded economic development. Despite its economic inefficiencies, the merchant-bureaucrat combination remained the principal device for initiating industrial enterprises.
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Examples of such enterprises included Kweichow Ironworks established in 1891 and the Hupeh Textile Company established in 1894. Like all other newly-sprouted enterprises of its kind, they were very weak and represented only a small fraction of the total investment in industry.
China's first railroads were all built by Foreigners. These minimal efforts at modernizing China had little impact on the lives of the people and on the state's power.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:49 PM   #76
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Limited weapon producing does not equate to modernization.
The Chinese Recorder - Google Books

In 1894, the Hanyang arsenal, which was built in 1893 was destroyed by fire. It was quickly rebuilt and rapidly churned out thousands of guns.

Timely Topics - Google Books

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THE EMPRESS DOWAGER WAS PREPARED FOR WAR.
China has been getting ready for trouble ever since the close of the Japanese war. Several yearB ago I had an interview on the situation in China, with Yang Yu, who is, I believe, now Chinese minister to Germany, but who preceded Wu Ting Fang as minister to the United States. It was just after the war, and he warned me that the Chinese army would be reorganized after modern methods. He said that the country would have new ships, new forts, and its military strength would be so increased that it could defend itself against any nation or all nations. He took a pencil and figured up the possibilities of the Chinese army of the future. He said China could put twice as many men in the' field as any other nation, referred to the wonderful wealth of the country and its mineral resources, saying that it could make its own guns and munitions of war. He told me that the iron mines near Hankow would be developed and new arsenals built
This prophecy has been borne out by the facts. The arsenals at Tien Tsln, Canton and Nanking have been busy for the past four years, and the Kiagnan arsenal, here at Shanghai, is still turning out guns of all descriptions and smokeless powder as well. The empress dowager has been importing Mausers and arming the troops, and some of the biggest American gun factories have had their agents here trying to Introduce American rifles.
HOW WE LOST A RIFLE ORDER.
The Chinese think well of our guns, and the viceroy of Canton not long ago asked Consul General Goodnow for the name of the best American gun and of the most responsible of the American firms. It happened that one of our gun factory agents was in Shanghai at the time, and at the suggestion of the consul general he went to see the viceroy and offered to fill his order at 15 taels per gun, or 150,000 taels for all. The viceroy replied that ihe would give him the order, but that he must have the stuff at once. The agent then cabled to the United States and in reply was told that the guns could not be furnished within less than a year.
Upon this the viceroy said that this would not do, be must have the guns at once. He then applied to the Germans, who told htm that they could give him what he wanted in sixty days and that at 11 taels each. They got the order, but the guns sent were a lot of old weapons, hardly worth their freight.
At the arsenal at Shanghai the Chinese are making guns almost as large as any made in the Washington navy yard. Some of them are thirty-five feet long, with projectiles weighing a thousand pounds. Armstrong rapidfiring guns are made and also modern rifles. Projectiles of all kinds, from revolver cartridges up to great shells of steel as high as your waist are turned out in great quantities, and the different kinds of shot and shrapnel number about 200. The work is all done by Chinese under one or two foreign superintendents.
GUN MAKING AT HANKOW.
Many of the weapons with which the Chinese are armed come from Hankow. The great Viceroy Chang Chi Tung has an arsenal there upon which he Is spending half a million taels a year. The guns turned out are a sort of Mauser, and the steel comes from the steel works at Han Yang, just above Hankow. There are large iron mines in the vicinity and coal mines, to -which a railroad has been built
I was at the city of Hang Chow not long ago and had a chance to see the troops there undergoing their drill. They did well, showing the effects of their rigid training since the war with Japan. Chang Chi Tung's troops have been drilled by Germans, and this is so, I am told, with most of the armies of the viceroys. In the military and naval schools, Germans, Belgians and Russians are employed.
Modern guns have been Introduced as rapidly as possible, 160,000 Mausers having been recently bought. The arsenals have also been turning out a number of quick-firing mountain guns, and some native-made rifles of one-dnob calibre, each to be manipulated by two men. This weapon is nine feet long and is fitted with a home-made breech mechanism of the Mauser order.
Coaling, docking, and repairing facilities of the ports of the world, with ... - United States. Office of Naval Intelligence - Google Books

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Hanyang Gun Factory ( C h i n e s e Government).
Naval Institute Proceedings - Google Books

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A Chinese Infantry Rifle Of Mammoth Size.—The following account is translated from the Rivista di Artiglieria e Genio: "On account of its curious character we reproduce from the France Militaire of August 12 the following data of a gun with which the infantry of the Celestial Empire is to be armed, and which is the heaviest and most inconvenient piece at present known.
"This arm which, according to the paper mentioned, would be adopted after the Chinese troubles were over, is made at the Shanghai arsenal and is nearly a copy of .he German Mauser, Bodel 1888, but on a scale almost three times as large.
"The caliber is 15 millimeters (0.59 inches); the length without bayonet is 2.55 meters (8.36 feet); the weight is over 20 kilograms (44 pounds). In order to handle a piece so unusual in character, three soldiers are required instead of one—two to hold it on their right shoulders in a horizontal position and the third to fire it.
"The range is equal to that of a small cannon, being 4000 meters (4373 yards). The cylindro-ogival bullet is like an artillery projectile, is of steel, and weighs 100 grams (0.22 of a pound); the muzzle velocity reaches 700 meters (2297 feet)."
Chinese Arsenals.—" Mr. Gerow D. Brill, who was until recently in the employ of the Chinese Government, states the Chinese have arsenals and smokeless powder factories at Foochow, Hanyang, Nanking, Chengtu, and near Canton. At Hanyang there are factories working at full pressure, night and day, turning out hundreds of magazine rifles, and they have also all the machinery and metal for making large ordnance, quick-firing, and machine guns. There is also a factory there for the production of smokeless powder, and this is now in full work. The same informant expresses it as his opinion that Chang-chi-tung is one of the wisest men in the country, and that he is not making arms and ammunition for nothing, nor reorganizing the army without some definite object. He concludes an interview by saying, ' No one can tell what is going to happen in China.' "—Army and Navy Journal, October 5.
Northern China, the valley of the Blue River, Korea: 13 maps and plans - Claudius Madrolle - Google Books

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On the r. bank of the Han is the Arsenal. This important establishment, built in 1893, comprises a magazine-rifle factory, another for quick-firing guns (Gruson's) of 37 and 57 mm. calibre, and a cartridge factory.
The iron foundries of Hang-yang, the most important industry
of the locality, have, by grouping the two workings under the
same name with the style of « Han-yeh-hsing Iron and Coal Co »i
secured the smelting of the magnetic iron dug at Ta-yeh Hsien,
using the coal from P'ing-hsiang Hsien.
The foundries produced, in 19o9, 74,ooo tons of pig-iron which were exported via Shang-hai to japan and even to America. A new blasting-furnace, erected in 1910, will enable the production of pig-iron to be doubled. The employees are chiefly Cantonese and Ningponese.
A powder-mill, set up a few miles further N., produces smokeless powder.
Armor - Google Books

Quote:
The central government seems accordingly to have taken the important step of gradually rearming all the artillery with guns of the self recoiling style. Possibly the new scheme, like so many of its predecessors, may break down with the first attempt. At any rate it is a significant indication of the trend towards military reform which is now conspicuous in China.
In order to illustrate further the progress made by China in the line of military improvements, we must state that notwithstanding the order for guns placed with Krupp, the government pursues without intermission the work of developing and perfecting its own arsenals, presumably to secure with time absolute independence from foreign nations in that respect.
At the present time China possesses large arsenals in the following localities:
1. Hanyang, in the Province of Hupei.
2. Nanking, in the Province of Kiangsu.
3. Kiangnan, near Shanghai, in the Province of Kiangsi. 4 Futschu, in the Province of Fukien.
5. Canton, in the Province of Kwangtung.
Of these several armories, Hanyang is the most important, for it is furnished with the best personnel and machinery, and its productions indicate steady progress. Besides a large steam hammer, two blast furnaces, Bessemer & Martin Steel Works, it includes a gun lathe, a rifle factory and a metallic cartridge factory; one hundred operatives are constantly employed in filling the numerous requisitions sent in for war material.
In the line of small guns, the German rifle m. 98 without barrel case is manufactured here. But while in former years the daily output never exceeded fifteen pieces, since the plant was enlarged and completed by the purchase of additional machinery in Germany last year, twenty-five have been delivered every day. The production could be increased to fifty, but has been limited to thirty-five. The cartridge factory turns out daily 20,000 cartridges. The gun factory is also extremely active, and since the beginning of the present year has been considerably improved. The pieces manufactured are chiefly 3.7 and 5.7 cms. quick firing guns, of which about fifteen are ready for delivery every month.
The arsenals in Canton and Shanghai likewise enjoy a good reputation. It seems, however, pretty well decided that these technical establishments will, before very long, be transferred elsewhere, namely, the Canton arsenal up the western river to Wuchou and the one at Shanghai to Pinghsiang in the Province of Kiang-si. The motive alleged for this undoubtedly very expensive undertaking is that greater safety and better protection can be secured for these factories in the interior of the country than near the coast, where they are exposed to hostile aggressions, and where, in the event of war, they would possibly have to be closed altogether.
The re-shaping of the Far East - Bertram Lenox Simpson - Google Books

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Under such circumstances, before going any further, one of the most interesting questions at the moment is, what quantity of rifles and artillery with corresponding ammunition have been imported into China during the past year and a half? It is a question which is not easily answered for a variety of reasons; but certain investigations lead me to suppose that 214,000 rifles with ammunition amounting to upwards of 800 rounds per rifle and some 248 quick-firing guns have been imported or are about to be imported. These figures are not absolutely accurate, since it is quite impossible to make accurate returns of articles imported under Chinese Government certificates. But without mentioning the manner in which these totals have been arrived at, it may be stated that their accuracy can only be 20 per cent. at fault — that is to say, the actual amounts may be 20 per cent. less or 20 per cent. more. We may, therefore, assume that in a period of eighteen months China has imported a quarter of a million rifles and some two hundred quick-firing guns. When it is stated that the capacity of the Hanyang arsenal is fifty Mauser rifles and 25,000 cartridges per diem, and that in addition one hundred quickfiring guns and 100,000 shells can be turned out every year at this important factory, whilst the Kiangyan establishment near Shanghai is equally important and possesses a greater capacity for the manufacture of heavy artillery of position, it will be realised that the day is not far off when the Chinese question will have to be dealt with very differently. For by tabulating the figures of the number of rifles and guns which will be actually available during 1905 or at the beginning of 1906, the following results are arrived at: —
Rifles and Carbines: —
1. Eighteen months'importation 214,000
2. Arms in hands of Northern troops
prior to removal of prohibition 60,000
3. Arms in Central and Southern
China 90,000
4. Distributed by Hanyang and
Kiangyan arsenals, or still held
in stock by them 100,000
Total 464,000
Artillery: —
1. Importations 248 guns
2. Hanyang and Kiangyan — stocks
distributed or still held 450 ,,
3. In hands of troops prior to re
armament 360 ,,

Total.................... 1,057 ,,

These are indeed astonishing figures, although it is of course not pretended that a Chinese field-force capable of taking up and using these weapons properly as yet exists. But, as will be shortly shown, a force far greater than this will ultimately exist, possibly within five years, certainly within ten; and the presence of such immense bodies of well-armed and well-drilled men will tend entirely to alter the Far Eastern situation. But it is best to pass immediately from the vague to the concrete and to state in black and white the actual condition of existing Chinese forces.
For the time being the Lien Ping Ch'u, or Council for Army Reform, has had to content itself with a policy which corresponds almost entirely with its name. It is advocating and drafting new schemes, overseeing the new military schools, examining the actual condition of the provincial forces, ordering the entire re-armament of all units with modern rifles and guns, and, most important of all, collecting funds for the large purchases of war materials and the heavy disbursements it contemplates making. At the present moment it has only a sum equivalent to a million sterling in hand — a sum which is entirely inadequate even for the initial expenditure which has to be made. This is fully recognised, and ways and means are now being devised.
Elihu Root collection of United States documents: Ser. A.-F.] - Elihu Root, United States - Google Books

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THE IRON WORKS.
The Viceroy's iron works at Hanyang are running full time, and are supplying the rails for this half of the Hankau-Pekin Railway. (In my report for 1900, on pages 960 and 961, in Commercial Relations of the United States, 1900, volume 1,1 am quoted as saying, "the Viceroy's iron works and smokeless powder mills are located at and near Seoul." This was a printer's error; it should have been Hanyang.)
IRON ORE FOR JAPAN.
The Japanese Government has closed a contract with Viceroy Chang for 105,000 tons of iron ore from the mines at Wong Tze Kong, 65 miles down the river from this port, where the ore for the iron works and arsenal at Hanyang is secured. The ore is being taken to the Moji iron works in Japan.
THE ARSENAL: SMOKELESS POWDER.
Work at the arsenal has continued active. Rifles and lightfield cannon are being turned out, and large quantities of ammunition are being made and stored at Wuchang and other fortified points on this river.
The mills for the manufacture of smokeless powder, which were built on the Han River, 3 miles above the arsenal at Hanyang, continue to turn out that product.
China's Techno-Warriors: National Security and Strategic Competition from ... - Evan A. Feigenbaum - Google Books

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Some of the parallels between the late Qing defense industry and the strategic weapons programs of the contemporary era are truly fascinating. A system, including a translation bureau, at the Jiangnan Arsenal for the absorption of foreign technical materials ... Li Hongzhang's political rivalry with Zhang Zhidong, who attempted to build the Hanyang Arsenal in Hubei as an alternative to the Jiangnan Arsenal, especially in the manufacture of smokeless powder, then among the highest priority national military technologies. The rivalry in China over smokeless powder was as ...
A Cultural History of Modern Science in China - Benjamin A. Elman - Google Books

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Partial chronological lists of arsenals, etc., in Chuna, 1861-1892. 1. Anqing Arsenal, 1861 2. Jiangnan Arsenal, 1865 3. Jinling Arsenal, 1865 4. Fuzhou Shipyard, 1866 5. Tianjin Arsenal, 1867 6. Xi'an Arsenal, 1869 7. Lanzhou Arsenal, 1871–1872 8. Guangzhou Arsenal, 1874 9. Hunan Arsenal, 1875 10. Shandong Arsenal, 1875 11. Sichuan Arsenal, 1877 12. Jilin Arsenal, 1881 13. Lüshun, Port Arthur Naval Station, 1881–1882 14. Weihaiwei Shipyard, 1882 15. Beijing Field Force ...
On Their Own Terms: Science in China, 1550-1900 - Benjamin A. ELMAN, Benjamin A Elman - Google Books

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5. Tianjin Arsenal (1867), under Li Hongzhang used to manufacture gunpowder and acid. 6. Xi'an Arsenal (1869), used to manufacture bullets and gunpowder. 7. Lanzhou Arsenal (1871–1872), used to manufacture bullets and gunpowder. 8.
The Ephemeral Civilization: Exploding the Myth of Social Evolution - Graeme Donald Snooks - Google Books

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There were a few modern state-owned enterprises but these were for defence purposes—such as the Jiangnan Arsenal (1865), the arsenal at Lanzhou (1872), the shipyards at Fuzhou (1866) and Dalian (Port Arthur) (1882), and an ...
Modern Chinese Warfare, 1795-1989 - Bruce A. Elleman - Google Books

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... repeating rifles and Krupp needle guns, while the artillery used 12- and 16- pound steel cannon. A Chinese arsenal at Lanzhou manufactured ammunition and shells and, by 1875, had even succeeded in producing its own weapons. Finally ...
In the footsteps of Marco Polo: being the account of a journey overland from ... - Clarence Dalrymple Bruce - Google Books

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There is a modern arsenal at Lan-chou which employs about a hundred men. They are looked after by a foreman trained at the well-known Shanghai arsenal. Eight taels a - month is the handsome wage paid each man, while the foreman receives thirty taels.
The manager was a pleasant gentleman from Shansi province, who, after showing the way round, entertained us to tea. Very little work is now done beyond the turning of old Chinese jingals into a somewhat modern edition of the same thing. In another part of the arsenal buildings we received a great surprise on being shown the complete and most costly machine plant for an entire European wool factory.
It transpired that the plant had been erected fifteen years ago by a former progressive Viceroy, at an evident expenditure of thousands of pounds. There are engine-houses and engines, looms, carding machines, cleansing and pressing machines—in fact, all the necessaries of an up-to-date factory worked entirely by steam-power; even the leather-driving belts of the machinery, some two feet wide, still remained; and though the whole is now in indifferent repair, no doubt much of the machinery could still be made use of. The Viceroy ordered the plant from Europe, and his successor stopped it working after a short period. The latter has now passed away, and the present Viceroy has commissioned Mr Splingardt, the Belgian gentleman already mentioned as in the service of the Chinese, to bring out from Europe two mechanics capable of looking after the whole factory.
A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google Books

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The efforts to industrialize between 1840 and 1894
1862 Big arsenal and naval shipyard at Shanghai (Chiang-nan chih-tsao-cbu). Powder factories in the provinces. Creation of the ... of the biggest industrial enterprises in the world at this time. 1872 The Sian arsenal is transferred to Lan- chou.
Overland Monthly and Out West Magazine - Bret Harte, Making of America Project - Google Books

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Soon after the war with the Allies, in i860, the progressive party, headed by Li-Hung-Chang, the conqueror of the Taipings, and Tso-Tsung-Tang, the conqueror of Turkistan, inaugurated a general reorganization of all the land and naval forces. Dockyards and an arsenal were established near Shanghai, where several iron-clads have been built, launched, and equipped; heavy and fiel<t guns breechloading rifles, and small arms have been manufactured.
At Foo-chow, still more extensive works were built, and placed under charge of a Frenchman. They have building ships, rolling mills, engine works, blast furnaces, and machine shops ; in short, all the means for constructing first-class vessels of war and their complete equipment. 1
Twenty-one iron-clads have been built at these Foo-chow docks, twelve of which are of more than one thousand tons displacement.
Near Tientsin, the Viceroy, Li-Hung-Chang, has constructed complete works of the same character as those at Foo-chow. For ten years employes from Woolwich, England, have had supervision of them, and have instructed a large corps of men in every branch of ship building, and the manufacture of arms and munitions of war. There are also arsenals at Nankin and Canton, where breech-loading rifles and small arms and their ammunition are manufactured. In addition to all this, many war vessels have been bought from Europe, as well as large numbers of heavy Krupp guns, the latest infantry, and cavalry, and field batteries. Forts have been built at the mouths of their rivers and the entrances to their bays and harbors. Electric torpedoes have been laid in some places. Several steel-clad gunboats, with all the machinery below the water-line, are now in the course of construction on the river Tyne.
As to the condition of their army, reliahle data cannot be readily obtained. The conquest of Turkistan, two years since, was chiefly attributable to the Mongol, Tartar, and Chinese races—the same races which, under Genghis Khan and his successors, held sway over the• whole of Asia, from the Yellow Sea to the Mediterranean, and founded the Great Mogul Empire in India—are not yet lost, and the marvellous resuscitation of China during the last eighteen years, which has been the theme of all observers, is nowhere more apparent than in the development of her military and naval strength. Shut out as she has been for ages from the rest of the world, she has not, indeed, shared in the great material progress of the western nations, but her recent liberation from these superstitious shackles places her in a position where she may at once avail herself of aH the results produced in other lands by centuries of invention and research.
What progress has been already made, may be learned from a striking article in "Frazer's Magazine " in 1879, by Captain Bridge, R. N. This writer, speaking from personal knowledge, says:
"I have seen guards of soldiers armed with Remington breeches, river junks carrying smooth-bores, and steam gunboats mounting Krupp breech-loading cannon . . . Millions have been already spent in the construction of war steamers of modern type, and-in the establishment of dock-yards and arsenals, in which munitions of war of all kinds may be produced. . . . Several important arsenals and gun factories are now scattered throughout the maritime provinces of the empire.
"In 1876 a naval yard was established near Shanghai, and though there are a few Englishmen and Americans holding posts in it, the control of it is exclusively in the hands of native officials. Two steam frigates, of nearly three thousand tons measurement, and five-gun-vessels had been launched from it three years ago, and a small iron-clad for river service completed. Of the frigates, one was in commission, and the writer, who has seen her actually at sea, was allowed to go over her when lying at anchor near Shanghai. She is a handsome craft, completely armed with Krupp guns. Her crew, from the captain down, without exception, is composed of native Chinamen. She did the Chinese credit in all respects. Attached to the dock-yard is a large military arsenal, in which are stored guns and small arms of all descriptions, and in which projectiles for heavy and field guns and breech-loading rifles of the Remington pattern were being continuously produced. Heavy machinery for the manufacture of armor-plates was being erected in a portion of the works. On the opposite bank of the river may be seen the great powder factory, not long ago constructed for the manufacture of gunpowder of the European kind.
"But, perhaps, the most marked instance of progress in this direction is to be observed at, or rather near, the treaty port of Foo-chow. Under the authority of the distinguished Tso-Tsung-Tang, M. Giguel, an officer of the French Navy, began some
twelve years ago to form a dock-yard on the Min River, a few miles below the city just mentioned, which could be easily fortified. The extraordinary success which has attended his labors will be understood by some knowledge of the difficulties with which he had to contend. The very ground on which the navy-yard is formed had to be made. The soil was alluvial, formed by a thick layer of solidified mud, covered with a coating of nearly liquid clay. In consequence of the freshets in the river, the level of the ground had to be raised five feet. In spite of these and other disadvantages, M. Giguel, at the end of seven years, had iron-works, rolling-mills, enginefactories, and building ships—in fact, all the plant of a naval yard—in full working order ; and had actually built the engines, and in some cases the armament, for no less than fifteen vessels, of which eleven were over one thousand tons displacement. Not only this, but a school for naval officers had been formed, and a training-ship, fitted to make cruises at sea, had been attached to the establishment.
"Even this account of several great arsenals would not exhaust all that might be said in description of what has recently been done in China to increase the efficiency of the army and navy, which she has begun to consider necessary to her well-being."
It will thus be seen that China, the " effete" nation of the East, but just entered in the race between modern naval powers, has already actually put to sea more powerful guns than has any other nation on the globe; for the English " Inflexible " and the Italian "Duilio," carrying eighty-ton and one hundred-ton guns, respectively, are not yet ready for service; while the heaviest guns now mounted afloat by the French, Germans, and Russians burn smaller charges and have less power than the guns on board these gunboats.
In addition to these gunboats, the Chinese have determined to still further equip themselves for coast defense, by providing a supply of torpedo-boats ; and the first of the series proposed, an experimental boat, was shipped from England to China in August, 1879. Its dimensions are as follows: Length, 52 feet; breadth, 7 feet; mean draught of water, 3 feet 6 inches; maximum speed, 16 knots per hour. It is built of steel, is divided by six water-tight compartments, and is arranged to work three spar-torpedoes.
The foregoing papers not only show a beginning in the direction indicated, but far greater progress than was thought possible in 1868.
More on the arsenals here:

The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books

The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books

The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books

The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books

The Cambridge History of China: Volume 11, Late Ch'ing, 1800-1911 - Google Books

Quote:
Originally Posted by emperor of seleucid View Post
Did those savages ruin China by refusing to keep up with technology like the Ming did and by becoming so corrupt that they couldn't modernize even after like 60 years after getting humiliated.
First Anglo-Afghan War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe Britain should have adopted tribalism and tried regressing its technology.

Last edited by deke; January 23rd, 2013 at 07:24 PM.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:53 PM   #77
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Britain saw no need for China to modernize anything but its military, so why should China have felt differently? Britain during the 1880s thought that China's military modernization succeeded made it an important power. Britain knew that China exclusively focused on modernizing its military weapons in the 1870s and didn't seem to think anything was wrong, they noticed the absence of telegraphs and non military technology but no one gave a hoot.

The Life of Yakoob Beg: Athalik Ghazi, and Badaulet; Ameer of Kashgar - Demetrius Charles de Kavanagh Boulger - Google Books

The Life of Yakoob Beg: Athalik Ghazi, and Badaulet; Ameer of Kashgar - Demetrius Charles de Kavanagh Boulger - Google Books

China and the International System, 1840-1949: Power, Presence, and ... - David Scott - Google Books

Littell's Living Age - Google Books

Littell's Living Age - Google Books

Russian General Staff and Asia, 1860-1917 - Alex Marshall - Google Books

Some british supremacists were mortified by britain's foreign policy to china in the 1880s and 1890s because they were showing extreme deference to china

China and her mysteries - Alfred Stead - Google Books

China and her mysteries - Alfred Stead - Google Books

China and her mysteries - Alfred Stead - Google Books

Last edited by deke; January 23rd, 2013 at 06:58 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 03:21 PM   #78

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Again, these are SPECIFIC case, but they don't represent the modernization of china as a whole. Generally, the Qing government made little attempts at modernization. This explains their defeat in the second Opium wars and the Sino Japanese wars. Most of the developments were done in specific cities. Most of the population were still peasants. Most of the cities were still primitive. The army lacked training and quality self produced weapons. China was not modernizing. Japan around the Same time was.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 03:23 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emperor of seleucid View Post
Again, these are SPECIFIC case, but they don't represent the modernization of china as a whole. Generally, the Qing government made little attempts at modernization. This explains their defeat in the second Opium wars and the Sino Japanese wars. Most of the developments were done in specific cities. Most of the population were still peasants. Most of the cities were still primitive. The army lacked training and quality self produced weapons. China was not modernizing. Japan around the Same time was.
No, they were defeated because there soldiers were totally lax. .

Post from deke.
Quote:
I don't remember ever saying that china had an advanced economy or technology in the 19th century. China used matchlocks but it had up to date artillery since it adopted artillery from jesuits in the 17th century to defeat the russians at albazin.

In the ming dynasty, after the portuguese were defeated twice at tamao in 1621 and 1622 (by chinese junks with inferior cannon), the chinese copied and reproduced portuguese cannon they captured since they were superior.

Chinese junks armed with inferior chinese designed cannon also forced the dutch who had superior cannon out of the pescadores in the 1620s into taiwan, and then defeated the dutch at the battle of fort zeelandia in 1662.

China had inferior military technology but that was not why china lost. The vastly inferior, underdeveloped afghans managed to rip the british army to shreds using matchlocks and swords against more advances british technology. Afghanistan and china had the same military technology. China lost because its military training and discipline decline sharply after decades of no war.

China's military was made out of manchu bannermen whose position was hereditary and a poorly trained green standard army. The bannermen received a stipend for doing nothing at all, and often gambled and engaged in other activities.

The qianlong emperor noted that a hundred years before chinese bannermen were only slightly inferior to manchu bannermen, and in his time, the quality had declined drastically. The same thing happaned to the manchu bannermen. They didn't bother training at all after the initial manchu conquest of china. The green standard army were given inferior weapons and military training in china was very lax.

The white lotus rebellion erupted in 1794 and took ten years for the rebels to be put down. The eight trigram rebels themselves broke into the forbidden city and nearly killed the emperor since the military discipline broke down severely.

China's Last Empire: The Great Qing - William T. Rowe - Google Books

Since training was bad, in the first opium war, sometimes chinese soldiers inside forts and junks did not bother firing their artillery at all at the british.

In the second opium war in 1859, when the gunners at taku forts actually fired back at the british they managed to sink and destroy the enemy gunboats.

Britain won because it went up against a poorly trained and lax enemy.

Chinese pirates hired as mercenaries by the chinese government (they spent their entire lives fighting unlike bannermen in the chinese army) managed to wipe out portuguese pirates off the chinese coast in the 1850s.

Last edited by Gorge123; January 25th, 2013 at 03:29 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #80

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Military training is a part of Modernization of the Military. The Afhan won because they engaged in guerilla warfare whereas China faced Britain in a war between powers and lost humiliatingly.
The Qing still had not developped Schools, or Hospitals, or sanitation, or mass production factory, etc.. You get the point.
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