Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 18th, 2013, 07:31 AM   #21
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
You're still posting here, so I suggest you drop the accusations of bias, because no one here has an axe to grind, except the people who have a nationalistic agenda to push. The fact that the passages you quoted were fraudulent were pointed out to you time and again, and you simply dismissed them.

You're not interested in reasonable discussion.
None of the passages quoted in any of the two locked threads cited above are fake.

Lord Macaulay-- Documented saga of fraudulence has reproduced the material from Macaulay letters as contained in the Columbia website.

The 600 Trillion thread also does not have any "Fake" passages.

Both the above threads were locked for other reasons than the contents of my posts.
birder is offline  
Remove Ads
Old January 18th, 2013, 08:11 AM   #22

diddyriddick's Avatar
Forum Curmudgeon
 
Joined: May 2009
From: A tiny hamlet in the Carolina Sandhills
Posts: 14,692

Birder,

We tolerate many things here on historum. Baiting, intellectual dishonesty and trolling are not included in that list. You selectively pared a source document to make your chosen "villain" look bad to further your rabid agenda. The thread was closed for those reasons and those alone.

Don't you find it strange that you're right and everybody else is wrong?
diddyriddick is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 08:17 AM   #23
Citizen
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 30

Drain of Wealth from India to Britain during centuries of oppressive loot and plunder. With simple interests even at very low rates, the amount works out to around GBP 600 Trillion. This amount rightfully belongs to India. it has been stolen by the British. It needs to be returned.

Many scholars have analysed the drain of wealth including Dada Bhai Naoroji. These are simply intelligent guesstimates but based on sound reason. I shall reproduce siome of them. Many others are available. All you need is Google and a willingness.

Dadabhai Naoroji, the founder of Congress also called, "The Grand Old Man Of India", and mentor of both Gokhale and Gandhi estimated in the 1870s, in his book titled, " Poverty And Un-British Rule In India", that the draining of wealth from India by the British was to the tune of 4 million pounds a year. This he calculated from the year 1857 onwards which went unabated till 1947.

Assuming that the drainage was an estimated 2 million pounds a year from 1767 (Battle Of Plassey) to 1856 and 4 million pounds from the year 1857 to 1947 then the total amount swindled would be an astonishing eye-opener in
today's terms. Let us see how. If we assume the money could have been invested at 7.5% compound interest then the present day value calculated using time value of money is roughly 600,000,000,000,000 pounds or 600 trillion pounds.

It is clear that it is very important for Indians to rally around with each other and
ask Britain to return the money to its rightful owners, the Republic Of India This money could be robbed of simple minded but divided Indians because the British had lied to the Mughals and Indian public in general, at Emperor Jehangir's time, when they first established the British East India Company in India. They said they come to trade but actually were building their armies in disguise, saying it was needed to safeguard the so-called interests of British East India Company.


Prof Hyndman had given a much lower estimate based on exports.
2. Ordinary readers rarely follow calculations in the text. I prefer therefore to put the figures of the Indian trade in a note. It must be borne in mind that no analogy whatever exists between such a country as the United States and India. The excess of Exports from the United States may be and as a matter of fact are represented by the unseen import of bonded and other indebtedness redeemed from abroad, or by investments in foreign countries, which, also, would not in this case appear in the trade returns. It is certain that India’s debts are not being repaid but being added to, and it is equally certain that she has made and is making no investments abroad. Consequently, the actual net surplus of exports from India over exports into India, the exports and imports of treasure being duly taken account of, represent the total amount of the actual drain of produce from India without commercial return. Now the total excess of exports for the last three years as given in the corrected official returns are for 1902-3 18,570,811; for 1903-4 24,961,773 and for 1904-5 20,144,132 or an average of 21,500,000. But this is far from being the amount of the drain. In order to arrive at the true figures and in order to balance correctly, we have (as the estimate of values is made at the Indian ports) to add at least fifteen per cent to the total of the exports in order to make up for a similar amount for profit, insurance and freight charged on the imports at the points of debarcation. If this is done in regard to the three years named, it will be found that upwards of 14,000,000 on the average should be added to the 21,000,000 of excess exports Thus the real yearly drain of wealth from India represents at least 35,000,000. In fact it is much more; as there can be no doubt whatsoever that much of the treasure retained in India on balance of treasure imported, as well as more than their proportion of trade imports, goes to the Native and Border States which are not under direct British control though their imports as well as their exports are calculated in with the figures of purely British territory.

But as he himself acknowledges he has not considered many aspects.

Another article calculates it as 521 trillion

The lowest estimate is that Britain was bleeding India at the rate of three to four million pounds per year. Or was it thirty to forty million? I need to check on that. Anyway let's stick with the lesser amounts for now. Average those to 3.5 million pounds per year. Assume that that sum was constant from 1857 to 1947. Assume further that the British looted a paltry 1 million pounds per annum from 1767 to 1856. Assume a 7.875% rate of annual interest compounded yearly. That must be a good rate because that is what I'm paying through the initial years on the adjustable-rate mortgage on my house. Then we calculate

Sum_{n = 1997 - 1767}^{n = 1997 - 1856} (1.07875)^n +
3.5 * Sum_{n = 1997 - 1857}^{n = 1997 - 1947} (1.07875)^n = (0.07875)^(-1) [(1.07875^231 - 1.07875^141)
- 3.5 * (1.07875^141 - 1.07875^50)] million pounds.

That works out to about 521,000,000,000,000 pounds, to be divided between India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Interest is currently accruing at the very serious rate of 41,000,000,000,000 pounds per annum. I haven't included damages, and interest thereon, for the Bengal famine, the Jallianwallah Bagh, and other like injuries. I haven't even included "gifts" like the Koh-i-noor. How much must we Indians have loved George V to have given him a nice gift like that to stick with glue on his gold crown! And guess where did he steal the gold and glue from?

On the basis of the current populations of India (946 million), Pakistan (140 million), and Bangladesh (119 million), unless we wish to make this a class action, India's share is 409 trillion pounds.


Prof Ram Ramarao suggests that Indian economists should be preparing accurate estimates of how much the British looted. He says that if American economists can do environmental economics and place dollar values on the non-extinction of whales, and clean and unclean air, etc., then it should be a peach to figure out exactly how much the British looted. Of course, those estimates should also cover "gifts" and damages.

It will be good to keep the estimates handy, even if no collection mechanism appears obvious today. There may come a day when there is big gun hanging from India's belt, and that sort of thing has the miraculous property of making the impossible possible. Not for nothing did the Indian princes quietly sign on the dotted line under a statement of the "doctrine of lapse" that decreed that their kingdom would pass to the British if they had no surviving male offspring. Maybe Prince Dody and Princess Diana's high-speed ascent to a higher plane is the sign we have all waited for.
birder is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 08:20 AM   #24

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,942

This wouldn't be an attempt to re-open a closed thread now, would it?
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 08:24 AM   #25

fuser's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: Pataligram, Pataliputra, Palibothra, Kusumpur, Pushpapura, Azimabad, Patna.
Posts: 256

Quote:
Drain of Wealth from India to Britain during centuries of oppressive loot and plunder. With simple interests even at very low rates, the amount works out to around GBP 600 Trillion. This amount rightfully belongs to India. it has been stolen by the British. It needs to be returned.
Don't be ridiculous. You can condemn the "Raj" by making a historical case but claiming such amount of money (which is nigh impossible to estimate anyways) and asking it to be return is ridiculous.

By your logic I demand all the sons and daughters of Kings/Queens and Landlords/Zamindars of India return money (which would be huge of course) to the sons and daughters of those toiling masses who perished under their brutal boots.

I don't want "British working class" to be paying for the folly of their bourgeoisie masters because of rabid Indian Nationalism.
fuser is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 09:13 AM   #26

Ancientgeezer's Avatar
Revisionist
 
Joined: Nov 2011
From: The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
Posts: 8,436

Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
Paranoid Islamophobia is not enrichment.
Look up non sequitur, you may discover something to your advantage.

@Birder
There are a lot of silly postings on here, but that is one of the silliest.
Over the period from 1587 to 1997 which covers that of the British Empire there were surely some disgraceful and reprehensible episodes as well as many noble and generous ones. There are plenty of genuine injustices, even when viewed through the morals of the time, without making up ones that are plain daft.
You may be aware of a group of African Americans who got up the idea to sue Lloyds of London for compensation. They believed that that organisation had insured the ships that carried slaves to the New World in the 16th to 19th Century and therefore was liable for the inferior social position that they had in the United States. A deputation of their representatives even traveled to Britain and made prize Berkley Hunts of themselves at the Lloyds building on TV when a terribly well-groomed PR man presented them with an audio-visual of what Lloyds was, is and how it has always operated--something that most Britons learn at school before they are 12 years old.
You risk falling into the same trap and joining them in the Berkley box.
There was no "India" in 1767, just a motley collection of bickering states constantly at war with each other and mostly ruled by selfish potentates who ruthlessly exploited the people. Between 1767 and 1857, "British" involvement was confined (apart from missionaries and scholars) to the EIC. They ran a business and repatriated profits to Britain, just as Mr. Tata and Mr. Mittal repatriate profits from their British and European operations to India today (well, SHOULD repatriate their profits, as it is, they shove their money into tax havens as they don't trust other Indians). You fail to mention that a substantial portion of exports from the EIC went to other parts of the world, Indian Opium to China was a major one--so perhaps the Indian people should be paying reparations to the Chinese for allowing their fields to be used for growing the drug. (Opium was a major cash crop in parts of India long before Europeans arrived).
During the period of the Raj—say 1857 to 1947, India—or at least the Princes became far richer than ever before, a real middle class also grew up and India acquired an infrastructure. The fee that the British should be asking for this has been waived—they have more important things to worry about.

Trivia: from 1921 to 1935 90%--yes 90% of Rolls-Royce sales were to Indian purchasers including the ten most expensive Rolls Royce cars ever built. Dehli had the only official Rolls Royce showroom outside of Britain----poor Indians!
Ancientgeezer is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 09:27 AM   #27

fuser's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: Pataligram, Pataliputra, Palibothra, Kusumpur, Pushpapura, Azimabad, Patna.
Posts: 256

Quote:
Over the period from 1587 to 1997
Please stop it, stop embarrassing yourself.

The demand for repatriation is indeed ridiculous or counting the wealth drain in "numbers" but the fact is India's natural development was stranded and brought massive sufferings on the toiling masses (not to say it wasn't the case beforehand but the colonial masters deteriorated the situation) because of colonization as in the case of every colony.

So I don't know either you are trolling or what but to give one example :

Life expectancy of an Indian pre british era - 43
Life expectancy of an Indian in 1947 - 34
Life expectancy of an Indian in 2012 - 65

Enough said.

Last edited by fuser; January 18th, 2013 at 09:35 AM.
fuser is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 09:41 AM   #28

Guaporense's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: Brazil
Posts: 4,822
Blog Entries: 14

While British colonialism didn't help India the fact was that the bad institutional framework they set in India that lead to economic stagnation and not simple taxation of income.
Guaporense is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 09:44 AM   #29

Guaporense's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: Brazil
Posts: 4,822
Blog Entries: 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser View Post
Please stop it, stop embarrassing yourself.

The demand for repatriation is indeed ridiculous or counting the wealth drain in "numbers" but the fact is India's natural development was stranded and brought massive sufferings on the toiling masses (not to say it wasn't the case beforehand but the colonial masters deteriorated the situation) because of colonization as in the case of every colony.

So I don't know either you are trolling or what but to give one example :

Life expectancy of an Indian pre british era - 43
Life expectancy of an Indian in 1947 - 34
Life expectancy of an Indian in 2012 - 65

Enough said.
Actually the data I have say that life expectancy in India in 1800 was 23 years, not 43 years. After a century of British colonial rule life expectancy increased 50%. Though the increase was modest if compared to the rest of the world (British life expectancy increased from 35 years in 1820 to 67 years in 1950).

The 43 years number is a taken out of thin air and has no relationship with reality. Nowhere in the world in the 18th century life expectancy reached 43 years as there wasn't the technology to attain such levels of life expectancy, which requires vaccination and sewers, specially in a hot country such as India.
Guaporense is offline  
Old January 18th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #30

fuser's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: Pataligram, Pataliputra, Palibothra, Kusumpur, Pushpapura, Azimabad, Patna.
Posts: 256

in 1800 India was under British rule and even using your data the increase from 23 to 34 in 147 years is very low specially when compared with rest of the world as evidently India's average age continued to grow at a much much higher speed after Independence quite clearly showing what British colonialism meant for India.

This isn't about statistical slug fest as you try to do everywhere, you can leave it right here.
fuser is offline  
Closed Thread

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
gdp, india, myth, stolen, wealth



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Myth of Bushido and the "Code of The Samurai" leakbrewergator Asian History 23 June 17th, 2013 05:46 PM
The word "Tudor" is claimed to a myth Master Chief European History 59 July 30th, 2012 03:38 AM
"The 1% are the very best destroyers of wealth the world has ever seen" corrocamino Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 0 November 10th, 2011 10:49 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.