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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:57 PM   #41
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I think we Indians know our country much better than you guys do. Its amazing how some of you resort to lecturing us about our own goddamned country.
just because it's your country doesent mean that someone else might not know more about it. for example i have a american friend and i know much more about his countries history than he does.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:01 PM   #42

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Considering that the amount of wealth that was available before the industrial revolution was nominal compared to what we enjoy today, I'd have to say yes. Not so sure it's a 'unique genius' but the west certainly did beat everyone else to the punch.
Its obvious to anyone that industrialization begun in the West. However it is absurd to claim that commerce trade or even wealth was invented by Westerners.
This is nothing but naive Western jingoism.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:16 PM   #43

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just because it's your country doesent mean that someone else might not know more about it. for example i have a american friend and i know much more about his countries history than he does.
A foreign historian who might know more about India than an Indian historian? I have not heard of one The thing is, India's history, culture, society et al is incredibly complex. Even the native Indians on this board, who have lived all their lives here, still have lots to discover and learn about this country. I am still a noob on the subject of India myself. A certain level of 'insider' knowledge is required to understand something about India.

But the above was not my point, my point to the members was - do not judge the world sitting in front of your computer. Please try to understand India, learn a little about it, do some background research on it etc. Instead, all I see here are members interested in flaming or bashing, and not a bit interested in the actual history and culture of India. They make ignorant comments, and the Indians get emotional and lash out. And get labelled as 'baiters'.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #44
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i know indian history is very complicated, i know very little of indian history compared to say european history but i have a decent knowlege from the mughal era to modern day.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:24 PM   #45
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Its obvious to anyone that industrialization begun in the West. However it is absurd to claim that commerce trade or even wealth was invented by Westerners.
This is nothing but naive Western jingoism.
Just as it's absurd to compare primitive trade and barter with modern economics and globalization, as though it were a viable alternate path. When the British came to India, India lacked the logistics for large scale trade with the west and the rest of the world, Britain provided these logistics and built up their infrastructure so they could eventually provide them for themselves. Something far, far more valuable than the few trinkets they took.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #46

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But the above was not my point, my point to the members was - do not judge the world sitting in front of your computer. Please try to understand India, learn a little about it, do some background research on it etc. Instead, all I see here are members interested in flaming or bashing, and not a bit interested in the actual history and culture of India. They make ignorant comments, and the Indians get emotional and lash out. And get labelled as 'baiters'.
It comes from both sides. Very few non-Indian members (with some exceptions) here have an axe to grind about India, but I see the reverse being true when it comes to Indian members with an axe to grind.

Do you remember the chap who was vehemently claiming that the ancient Indians had nanotechnology and spaceships and attacking everyone who disagreed? I'm sorry, but I'd call that baiting, not history - and yes, I know there are people from other countries who do the same about other fantastical subjects, and I'd call that baiting too. And when it comes to claiming that a joke was made specifically to trap him into protesting, that's more than baiting, that's sheer paranoia.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #47

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Originally Posted by The Imperial View Post
A foreign historian who might know more about India than an Indian historian? I have not heard of one The thing is, India's history, culture, society et al is incredibly complex. Even the native Indians on this board, who have lived all their lives here, still have lots to discover and learn about this country. I am still a noob on the subject of India myself. A certain level of 'insider' knowledge is required to understand something about India.
So no one but an Indian has enough intelligence or ability to understand Indian history.

No other country/region/continent is as complex and only an Indian has the ability to understand such complex issues.

That says a great deal.

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Originally Posted by The Imperial View Post
But the above was not my point, my point to the members was - do not judge the world sitting in front of your computer. Please try to understand India, learn a little about it, do some background research on it etc. Instead, all I see here are members interested in flaming or bashing, and not a bit interested in the actual history and culture of India. They make ignorant comments, and the Indians get emotional and lash out. And get labelled as 'baiters'.

Instead, all I see here are members interested in flaming or bashing, and not a bit interested in the actual history and culture of .......... They make ignorant comments and the ............. get emotional and lash out. And get labelled as 'baiters'
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:51 PM   #48

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Just as it's absurd to compare primitive trade and barter with modern economics and globalization, as though it were a viable alternate path. When the British came to India, India lacked the logistics for large scale trade with the west and the rest of the world, Britain provided these logistics and built up their infrastructure so they could eventually provide them for themselves. Something far, far more valuable than the few trinkets they took.
The trade networks between India and China and the Middle East or even Ethiopia and East African coastal cities was kind of sophisticsted.
I never said that ancient and premodern trade was an alternative to modern industrialization. Am saying that the concept of wealth that you mocked in such a silly and naive way earlier did exist in fairly sophisticated form.

And to describe colonial plunder as taking a few trinkets is delusional, with all due respect.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #49
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Just as it's absurd to compare primitive trade and barter with modern economics and globalization, as though it were a viable alternate path. When the British came to India, India lacked the logistics for large scale trade with the west and the rest of the world, Britain provided these logistics and built up their infrastructure so they could eventually provide them for themselves. Something far, far more valuable than the few trinkets they took.

First, perhaps you should read the arthashastra and explain to me exactly what form of modern economics and globalization does not find its counterpart within the text and two, India was having large scale naval and land trade with the middle east, Africa, south east Asia and east Asia long before the arrival of the Europeans.

This trade was forcibly shifted so that the bulk of it was shipped to European nations and colonies instead. Europeans effectively crashed all the other economies by doing this.

FYI Indian naval docks were bigger than european ones before the arrival of the English and overall there were more ships operating in the waters of the indian ocean and south east asian waters than in europe.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #50

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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
It comes from both sides. Very few non-Indian members (with some exceptions) here have an axe to grind about India, but I see the reverse being true when it comes to Indian members with an axe to grind.

Do you remember the chap who was vehemently claiming that the ancient Indians had nanotechnology and spaceships and attacking everyone who disagreed? I'm sorry, but I'd call that baiting, not history - and yes, I know there are people from other countries who do the same about other fantastical subjects, and I'd call that baiting too. And when it comes to claiming that a joke was made specifically to trap him into protesting, that's more than baiting, that's sheer paranoia.
I understand Naomasa. I agree with many points there. But I don't agree with the point 'Indian members are here with an axe to grind'. As I see it, most of them are just being too sensitive. But anyway I wasn't referring to you in particular. I was just making a general point

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So no one but an Indian has enough intelligence or ability to understand Indian history.

No other country/region/continent is as complex and only an Indian has the ability to understand such complex issues.

That says a great deal.
India is a place of one billion people. That too heterogeneous mix of people. History here is intricately woven with many factors. The perception of history, society and culture dynamically changes from caste to caste, community to community, region to region, religion to religion, cults within a sect, language to language. My understanding of history is totally different from even the few Indian historumites here. For example, I consider Tipu Sultan as a national hero, but the others consider him as a ruthless mass murdering fanatic. Some here say the dravidians-aryan divide exists, some say they don't. Some defend the Muslim rulers and claim Muslim culture to be one of the cores of Indian culture, but some call the Muslim invaders as the harbingers of ruin to Indian culture. Each caste and clan has a unique set of traditions and rules to follow. Each caste/clan perceive things differently. I have been living here since 19 years, and I do not know what the hell is going on around here!

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Instead, all I see here are members interested in flaming or bashing, and not a bit interested in the actual history and culture of .......... They make ignorant comments and the ............. get emotional and lash out. And get labelled as 'baiters'
Yes. May be I lashed out.
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