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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:10 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by mansamusa View Post
The trade networks between India and China and the Middle East or even Ethiopia and East African coastal cities was kind of sophisticsted.
I never said that ancient and premodern trade was an alternative to modern industrialization.
Well, at least we can agree on that.

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Am saying that the concept of wealth that you mocked in such a silly and naive way earlier did exist in fairly sophisticated form.

And to describe colonial plunder as taking a few trinkets is delusional, with all due respect.
I guess what I'm saying is that wealth is not created by manipulating scarcity, but rather by overcoming it.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:11 PM   #52

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First, perhaps you should read the arthashastra and explain to me exactly what form of modern economics and globalization does not find its counterpart within the text and two, India was having large scale naval and land trade with the middle east, Africa, south east Asia and east Asia long before the arrival of the Europeans.

This trade was forcibly shifted so that the bulk of it was shipped to European nations and colonies instead. Europeans effectively crashed all the other economies by doing this.

FYI Indian naval docks were bigger than european ones before the arrival of the English and overall there were more ships operating in the waters of the indian ocean and south east asian waters than in europe.
This post automatically makes them label you a 'nationalist' in their heads.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:26 PM   #53

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.................................................. ..........

India is a place of one billion people. That too heterogeneous mix of people. History here is intricately woven with many factors. The perception of history, society and culture dynamically changes from caste to caste, community to community, region to region, religion to religion, cults within a sect, language to language. My understanding of history is totally different from even the few Indian historumites here. For example, I consider Tipu Sultan as a national hero, but the others consider him as a ruthless mass murdering fanatic. Some here say the dravidians-aryan divide exists, some say they don't. Some defend the Muslim rulers and claim Muslim culture to be one of the cores of Indian culture, but some call the Muslim invaders as the harbingers of ruin to Indian culture. Each caste and clan has a unique set of traditions and rules to follow. Each caste/clan perceive things differently. I have been living here since 19 years, and I do not know what the hell is going on around here!

.............................
And you think Europe (shall we add North America into 'the West' in which case Canada is very different to the USA) is any less complex?

Look at Ireland and it divisions and its a small not very important island of the west coast of the continent.

I think a great deal of people should start to have some respect for each others histories realise there is more than one 'side' to events and the world is rarely 'good' and 'bad', heroes and villians 'Bad Britishers' -- 'heroic Indians' or the other way round.

It would also help if peolpe even tried to understand context once in a while.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #54

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I understand Naomasa. I agree with many points there. But I don't agree with the point 'Indian members are here with an axe to grind'. As I see it, most of them are just being too sensitive. But anyway I wasn't referring to you in particular. I was just making a general point
I certainly don't think all Indian members are here with an axe to grind. But there are two or three who are - to the point of attacking other Indian members who disagree with them - and it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. This vocal minority aren't doing the rest of the Indian members any favours, because they're causing hostility.

It doesn't help to cry bias and "racism" at every turn either. I have noticed that the people who complain the most about being censored tend to be those with an agenda, who think they aren't being allowed to push that agenda. And that's not a criticism of some (certainly not all) Indian members, certain Eastern European members are much the same...

Personally, I prefer to discuss history without playing the whole blame game, and without the emotion. Colonialism is an emotive topic, but as historians, we should try to look at it as objectively as possible, from all sides.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #55

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And you think Europe (shall we add North America into 'the West' in which case Canada is very different to the USA) is any less complex?

Look at Ireland and it divisions and its a small not very important island of the west coast of the continent.

I think a great deal of people should start to have some respect for each others histories realise there is more than one 'side' to events and the world is rarely 'good' and 'bad', heroes and villians 'Bad Britishers' -- 'heroic Indians' or the other way round.

It would also help if peolpe even tried to understand context once in a while.
As I said - stop judging the world sitting in front of your computer. My point was - it's amusing how people are trying to lecture us about our own history and culture. I meant we know our history better than non-Indians. I did not say whose history is superior, I was merely trying to get my point across that people do not understand India very well and should not make sweeping(sometimes very incorrect) statements about it.....

"Bad Britishers" -- "heroic Indians"? What about "Ungrateful uneducated Indians" -- "selfless enlightened Britishers" labels put forward by certain members? This is a fight best left to the nationalists from both sides. I have no interest in this argument because I do not think the "Bad Britishers--heroic Indians" way. In fact, I love British culture for being so formal and having that air 'sophistication' around it.

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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
I certainly don't think all Indian members are here with an axe to grind. But there are two or three who are - to the point of attacking other Indian members who disagree with them - and it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. This vocal minority aren't doing the rest of the Indian members any favours, because they're causing hostility.

It doesn't help to cry bias and "racism" at every turn either. I have noticed that the people who complain the most about being censored tend to be those with an agenda, who think they aren't being allowed to push that agenda. And that's not a criticism of some (certainly not all) Indian members, certain Eastern European members are much the same...

Personally, I prefer to discuss history without playing the whole blame game, and without the emotion. Colonialism is an emotive topic, but as historians, we should try to look at it as objectively as possible, from all sides.
Agreed.

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but as historians, we should try to look at it as objectively as possible, from all sides
That will be a challenge, but will make for a very productive debate.

Last edited by The Imperial; January 18th, 2013 at 02:50 PM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #56

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Well, at least we can agree on that.



I guess what I'm saying is that wealth is not created by manipulating scarcity, but rather by overcoming it.
Am not sure what that last phrase means. I know the success of British geopolitics was based on huge part on the control of international trade using their navy and also on the monopoly of the world's gold supply. The desperation of the Boer war or the Gold War is evidence that Brutish political economy was obsessed with manipulating sarcity associated with their mastery of the Gold standard, when London was the city built on Gold.

The Germans and the Americans were able nonetheless to beat them economically inspite of their imperialist advantage. Germany and the US embarked on ambitious industrial policies to do so behind high tariff walls relying on internal consumption and international but not free trade.

Today the US is foolish enough to do with the prtrodollar what the British tried to do with the gold standard ---maintaining dominance by playing tricks with money. The industrialization of China and India will mean the US is bound to lose this game just as the British lost to Germany and the US before world war 1.

Last edited by mansamusa; January 18th, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #57
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First, perhaps you should read the arthashastra and explain to me exactly what form of modern economics and globalization does not find its counterpart within the text and two, India was having large scale naval and land trade with the middle east, Africa, south east Asia and east Asia long before the arrival of the Europeans.

This trade was forcibly shifted so that the bulk of it was shipped to European nations and colonies instead. Europeans effectively crashed all the other economies by doing this.

FYI Indian naval docks were bigger than european ones before the arrival of the English and overall there were more ships operating in the waters of the indian ocean and south east asian waters than in europe.
Well, I'm not going to read it for the sake of this discussion, though I may put it on my reading list in the future.

But without reading it, let me take a few guesses off the top of my head, you can tell me if they're all covered: corporations, stocks, stock markets, commodity markets, shorts, derivatives, insurance (this may be there, it's a rather old one), a consistent system of contract law (and law in general) across the subcontinent, steam engines, railways, global maritime trade, industrialization, and that's probably enough for now.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 03:26 PM   #58

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Over the period from 1587 to 1997
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Please stop it, stop embarrassing yourself.
The life of the British Empire is generally accepted by literate people as starting with the Roanake Colony in 1587 and ending with the handover of Hong Kong in 1997--if you have a different timescale, please share your great knowledge--without embarrassment of course.


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The demand for repatriation is indeed ridiculous or counting the wealth drain in "numbers" but the fact is India's natural development was stranded and brought massive sufferings on the toiling masses (not to say it wasn't the case beforehand but the colonial masters deteriorated the situation) because of colonization as in the case of every colony.
China, a country that was not colonised experienced an almost identical stasis in development--worse in fact, as they did not benefit from Western-led political, social and economic reforms. Burma, Malaya and many other parts of the world also became parts of the Empire, but wails of blame and excuses only come from India and a handful of African nationalists--why is that? By the way India was NOT a colony!

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So I don't know either you are trolling or what but to give one example :

Life expectancy of an Indian pre british era - 43
Life expectancy of an Indian in 1947 - 34
Life expectancy of an Indian in 2012 - 65

Enough said.
Life expectancy of an Englishman in England 1600---30
Life expectancy of an Englishman in England 1800---40
Life expectancy of an Englishman in India 1800--27 ( av. survival 7 years from arrival)
Life expectancy of an Englishman in England in 1940----61
Life expectancy of an Englishman in England in 2012----78.05

So this proves---what? Medicine? Hygiene?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 04:11 PM   #59
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A
Am not sure what that last phrase means. I know the success of British geopolitics was based on huge part on the control of international trade using their navy and also on the monopoly of the world's gold supply. The desperation of the Boer war or the Gold War is evidence that Brutish political economy was obsessed with manipulating sarcity associated with their mastery of the Gold standard, when London was the city built on Gold.
Yes, all economies from the most primitive to the most modern work by manipulating scarcity. This generally accomplishes little more than transferring wealth (though it can help increase liquidity at times), it does not generally create wealth. To effectively increase wealth you need to either increase productivity or reduce inefficiencies in the economy. This was at the heart of Britain's success, they increased productivity, decreased the cost of transportation, and created systems to allow trade and economies to run more smoothly.

Gold's only real value is as an easy to work, relatively scarce, and difficult to counterfeit placeholder for objects and services of actual value...it has very few legitimate uses.

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The Germans and the Americans were able nonetheless to beat them economically inspite of their imperialist advantage. Germany and the US embarked on ambitious industrial policies to do so behind high tariff walls relying on internal consumption and international but not free trade.
Yes, Germany and the US got ahead by using and improving on the same modern systems of finance, logistics, and industrialization that Britain established in India. Which is why I said that the few trinkets the British took from India pale in comparison to the inheritance they left behind.

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Today the US is foolish enough to do with the prtrodollar what the British tried to do with the gold standard ---maintaining dominance by playing tricks with money. The industrialization of China and India will mean the US is bound to lose this game just as the British lost to Germany and the US before world war 1.
I'm not too worried, the future of industry is automation, more specifically decentralized automation which would solve many modern supply-chain problems. India and China are playing a 19th century game in the 21st century. Of course, it's the game they should be playing right now as they need it to build up their infrastructure and capital and bring their countries into the modern world, but the rules are starting to change and the current system is not sustainable in the long run. With contemporary advancements in computers and robotics I expect the global industrial landscape to change considerably over the next century...starting with automated vehicles in the next 10 years.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #60

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@Condtantine

A modern hitech robot economy modelled after the American cartoon family. ---The Jetsons would depend on investment in science and Maths which China and India and S Korea and just about every Asian country beats the US at.

So much so that the Asians are subsidising the American technology industry by educating their citizens in science to fill up high tech jobs in the US, while the best and brightest in America flock to wall street.

Have you ever heard of the Genius visa or H1b.

Last edited by mansamusa; January 18th, 2013 at 06:16 PM.
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