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Old January 18th, 2013, 11:01 PM   #61

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Originally Posted by beeh View Post
First, perhaps you should read the arthashastra and explain to me exactly what form of modern economics and globalization does not find its counterpart within the text and two, India was having large scale naval and land trade with the middle east, Africa, south east Asia and east Asia long before the arrival of the Europeans.

This trade was forcibly shifted so that the bulk of it was shipped to European nations and colonies instead. Europeans effectively crashed all the other economies by doing this.

FYI Indian naval docks were bigger than european ones before the arrival of the English and overall there were more ships operating in the waters of the indian ocean and south east asian waters than in europe.
^^
True that
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Old January 20th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #62
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@Condtantine

A modern hitech robot economy modelled after the American cartoon family. ---The Jetsons would depend on investment in science and Maths which China and India and S Korea and just about every Asian country beats the US at.

So much so that the Asians are subsidising the American technology industry by educating their citizens in science to fill up high tech jobs in the US, while the
best and brightest in America flock to wall street.
It's not about doing the work personally, it's about controlling and profiting from the work being done. Intel outsources a few of it's major processor design projects to India now, it took about ten years but Intel says that they're just as effective as the American teams now. This is probably the apex of modern skill in hardware design. But Intel still controls the work and profits from it. The entire technology sector is dominated by American corporations, from computing to data analysis to energy to aeronautics. And the few foreign corporations in the game tend to work just as closely with the US government as the American corporations and generally receive more money from the US government than their own. Furthermore, the funding for and number of start-up companies far surpasses the rest of the world. These are the important benchmarks for success, not test scores.

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Have you ever heard of the Genius visa or H1b.
Immigration has long been the great strength of America, we would not exist without it, we would have never been able to colonize the continent from ocean to ocean without it, and today it allows us to bring the best and the brightest from around the world and make them Americans. America is not a race, ethnicity, or even nation in the traditional sense; we have no need of maintaining a common ethnicity, culture, or heritage, because we have none to maintain. The H1b visa is the latest in a long line of policies that have served to make this a great nation and by no means a symptom of decline.
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Old January 20th, 2013, 02:13 PM   #63
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The railways, roads, telegraph, were built by the British with revenues seized from India, by British to facilitathe transport of raw material to their home land, nad finished goods and troops back to India.

The few eduactional institutes/schools were set up for the same reason, to create a class of english speaking servants.

The so called British Indian army was the same, raised with revenue from India, to colonize India, and fight the British wars in India and abroad, paid for by revenue from India.

The legal institutions, and system of justice replaced the indigenious sytem. The revenue system was replaced by the british system, and the legal system of the british was there, only, to enforce it.

The land revenue system in which the farner could pay his taxes in kind, a share of the produce, was replaced by cash. The british needed cash, and they sold future collection to collectors and local money lenders. When the farner could not pay, his lands were seized and sold to the money lender, and the british legal sytem gave it legal cover.

Villages would previously set aside lands to finance the local schools. They could not continue the practice under the British. The school system was destroyed.

Under the old system, the local councils, the panchayats would settle disputes. The decision of the lower panchayats couldbe appealed to the higher Panchayats/councils. They would make law.

This system was run in paraleel to the feudal system.

The new legal system was there for the benefit of the British.

Tragically it still exists today and many Indian Laws are holder overs from British rule, and are designed to oppress the population, not serve it.

Only recently in some areas was the law reformed to serve th common man. The Punjab Land Alienation act of the 1930's introduced by Sir Chotu ram, or the Abolitin of Zamindari in the 1950s by Charan Singh.


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Old January 20th, 2013, 11:14 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by birder View Post
We have a set of British "Historians" who cpntinue to believe that Britain deserves the credit for post independence advancements made by India.

These scholarly personae cannot have aqrational pointwise disccussion on any topic to any depth and prefer to engage in superficial banter.

Any reasoned argumwents by Indian (or other memnbers of former coloinies) are usually TALIBANNED in the name of "review". No further discussion ois permitted whenever they are at the losing end.

One classic examples is the following threads :

Lord Macaulay-- Documented Saga of Fraudulence.

http://www.historum.com/asian-histor...audulence.html

The moment these xenophobes realise that the argument is going against them, they try to censor the thread and lock it for all times.

There are many other such examples.

SO yes,

1. India and other colonies should be grateful to Britain for all the loot and plunder.
2. Any computations of the loot and plunder whether by economics or historians, Indian or British or other, needs to be necessarily debunked as it its the Historum brains who know all about it.

The other thread on the quantum of loot that was similarly locked by Historum Taliban :

http://www.historum.com/asian-histor...a-britain.html
There are many old timers who insist that India was practically the richest country in the world before the Europeans arrived to establish trade relations with the Indian subcontinent. That is a fallacy. There was wealth, yes. Was there welfare? The answer to the second question is a resounding no. The policies of Indian emperors post the Gupta period were laughable. During the period of the Delhi Sultanate, India, while not abjectly poor was not an affluent nation either. When the Mughals invaded, and take heed of the fact that both the Moghuls and the kings of the Delhi Sultanate too were foreign invaders, not Indians, there was wealth. But, was it well distributed? And, prior to the European plunder, had not some wealth all ready been plundered by Mohammed Gori and Ghajni. More often than not, we lose sight of the fact that the very perception of India as a nation was virtually non-existent before. Wasn't India a million city states ruled by as many rulers whose chief pass time was squabbling with one another. APart from Aurangzeb and Akbar before him, which Indian emperor's territory engulfed the entire nation as it exists today. Most of the Indian emperors built tombs and palaces to honour themselves or their family members. GDP of India was indeed low.
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Old January 20th, 2013, 11:16 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
The railways, roads, telegraph, were built by the British with revenues seized from India, by British to facilitathe transport of raw material to their home land, nad finished goods and troops back to India.

The few eduactional institutes/schools were set up for the same reason, to create a class of english speaking servants.

The so called British Indian army was the same, raised with revenue from India, to colonize India, and fight the British wars in India and abroad, paid for by revenue from India.

The legal institutions, and system of justice replaced the indigenious sytem. The revenue system was replaced by the british system, and the legal system of the british was there, only, to enforce it.

The land revenue system in which the farner could pay his taxes in kind, a share of the produce, was replaced by cash. The british needed cash, and they sold future collection to collectors and local money lenders. When the farner could not pay, his lands were seized and sold to the money lender, and the british legal sytem gave it legal cover.

Villages would previously set aside lands to finance the local schools. They could not continue the practice under the British. The school system was destroyed.

Under the old system, the local councils, the panchayats would settle disputes. The decision of the lower panchayats couldbe appealed to the higher Panchayats/councils. They would make law.

This system was run in paraleel to the feudal system.

The new legal system was there for the benefit of the British.

Tragically it still exists today and many Indian Laws are holder overs from British rule, and are designed to oppress the population, not serve it.

Only recently in some areas was the law reformed to serve th common man. The Punjab Land Alienation act of the 1930's introduced by Sir Chotu ram, or the Abolitin of Zamindari in the 1950s by Charan Singh.


Ravi Chaudhary
Do the means justify the end, then?
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Old January 21st, 2013, 02:37 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Catilina_Sergius View Post
There are many old timers who insist that India was practically the richest country in the world before the Europeans arrived to establish trade relations with the Indian subcontinent. That is a fallacy. There was wealth, yes. Was there welfare? The answer to the second question is a resounding no. The policies of Indian emperors post the Gupta period were laughable. During the period of the Delhi Sultanate, India, while not abjectly poor was not an affluent nation either. When the Mughals invaded, and take heed of the fact that both the Moghuls and the kings of the Delhi Sultanate too were foreign invaders, not Indians, there was wealth. But, was it well distributed? And, prior to the European plunder, had not some wealth all ready been plundered by Mohammed Gori and Ghajni. More often than not, we lose sight of the fact that the very perception of India as a nation was virtually non-existent before. Wasn't India a million city states ruled by as many rulers whose chief pass time was squabbling with one another. APart from Aurangzeb and Akbar before him, which Indian emperor's territory engulfed the entire nation as it exists today. Most of the Indian emperors built tombs and palaces to honour themselves or their family members. GDP of India was indeed low.

In a feudal system, the wealth is always skewed towards the feudalists- the kings. queen, their cronies.

The policies of the Indian mnarchila system was not any better.

The invasions of Ghazni/Ghori were raids, by themsleves they were of no lasting effect. Their importance has been overplayed.. Theye were not all that successful either, if you go into the indignenous accounts.

The d=iffrence between the Islamic invaders and the british was that , with the formwr the wealth stayed in India, with the British, the wealth was looted and tken abroad to England.

Ravi Chaudhary
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Old January 21st, 2013, 02:43 AM   #67

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catilina_Sergius View Post
There are many old timers who insist that India was practically the richest country in the world before the Europeans arrived to establish trade relations with the Indian subcontinent. That is a fallacy. There was wealth, yes. Was there welfare? The answer to the second question is a resounding no. The policies of Indian emperors post the Gupta period were laughable. During the period of the Delhi Sultanate, India, while not abjectly poor was not an affluent nation either. When the Mughals invaded, and take heed of the fact that both the Moghuls and the kings of the Delhi Sultanate too were foreign invaders, not Indians, there was wealth. But, was it well distributed? And, prior to the European plunder, had not some wealth all ready been plundered by Mohammed Gori and Ghajni. More often than not, we lose sight of the fact that the very perception of India as a nation was virtually non-existent before. Wasn't India a million city states ruled by as many rulers whose chief pass time was squabbling with one another. APart from Aurangzeb and Akbar before him, which Indian emperor's territory engulfed the entire nation as it exists today. Most of the Indian emperors built tombs and palaces to honour themselves or their family members. GDP of India was indeed low.
While i agree with most of your post, its very hard to believe that India's GDP was low. The per capita income might have been low, but hard to imagine the GDP was low, given India's population and size.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 04:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
In a feudal system, the wealth is always skewed towards the feudalists- the kings. queen, their cronies.

The policies of the Indian mnarchila system was not any better.

The invasions of Ghazni/Ghori were raids, by themsleves they were of no lasting effect. Their importance has been overplayed.. Theye were not all that successful either, if you go into the indignenous accounts.

The d=iffrence between the Islamic invaders and the british was that , with the formwr the wealth stayed in India, with the British, the wealth was looted and tken abroad to England.

Ravi Chaudhary
About wealth staying in the Indian country, was it not later? I mean, Gori did go back, did he not? Wealth stayed in India in the case of the Moghuls. Yes. But, of what deuce is wealth when it caters not to the welfare of the people. Aurangzeb instituted a few policies that were instituted to achieve partial distribution of wealth. But, they were not totally realised.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 04:16 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Imperial View Post
While i agree with most of your post, its very hard to believe that India's GDP was low. The per capita income might have been low, but hard to imagine the GDP was low, given India's population and size.
GDP might not have been low. But, I for one certainly don't think that it was as high as is being alleged.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 04:19 AM   #70
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Is it just coincidence that the only country in the area that escaped foriegn domination (Japan) is the only first world country in the area?
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