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Old January 18th, 2013, 11:34 AM   #51
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Or the West could have done to China what it did to Russia after the collapse of communism. Loot it.
Not likely, China would have been too valuable an ally in the face of Soviet aggression and with the prospect of war looming between NATO and the USSR in the 50's the west would have actively courted China during this time. China would have likely got large amounts of economic aid under favourable terms. No one was trying to loot China, in fact FDR even offered China French Indochina after the war with no strings attached other than keeping the French out. But Chiang had enough trouble at home and knew he was in no position to start administrating non-Chinese colonies.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #52

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Not likely, China would have been too valuable an ally in the face of Soviet aggression and with the prospect of war looming between NATO and the USSR in the 50's the west would have actively courted China during this time. China would have likely got large amounts of economic aid under favourable terms. No one was trying to loot China, in fact FDR even offered China French Indochina after the war with no strings attached other than keeping the French out. But Chiang had enough trouble at home and knew he was in no position to start administrating non-Chinese colonies.
This could have been a possibility. But lets not be too naive. The US unashamedly used its dominant position after the war to turn the British and French and all of western Europe into satellites. In particular the US manipulated the post war situation to finish off British Empire.

The demographics of China meant that it would eventually pose a threat. not just to the the Russians but also US itself. Economic dominance of China is inevitable and has nothing to do with communism or capitalism or Mao or Chiang Kai shek. China has been The Superpower for most of medieval and premodern history.

The rise of the West is much more of a freak of geopolitical nature or even a fluke of history.

Last edited by mansamusa; January 18th, 2013 at 12:10 PM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #53
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This could have been a possibility. But lets not be too naive. The US unashamedly used its dominant position after the war to turn the British and French and all of western Europe into satellites. In particular the US manipulated the post war situation to finish off British Empire.
And, if you haven't noticed, we've essentially done the same to China as well since the 1980's. We got them to buy into large amounts of US debt and rely on US food supplies, as a result, they really can't do anything that would harm relations with us too badly, lest we cut off the food and cancel, or at least suspend, the debt with justifiable cause and destroy their economy. There'd be some backlash, of course, but so long as our excuse was good enough no one is going to react too harshly, lest we do the same to them. Not to mention the tool of total embargo, which ultimately brought down the USSR.

There's a reason the US hasn't expanded its territory since WWII and why we haven't claimed vast swaths of the map like the European empires did. We've found better and more efficient ways of controlling nations. Better to let them govern their own affairs and only reign them in on matters within the realm of our interests.

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The demographics of China meant that it would eventually pose a threat. not just the Russians but also US itself. Economic dominance of China is inevitable and has nothing to do with communism or capitalism. China has been The Superpower for most of medieval history.

The rise of the West is much more of a freak of geopolitical nature or even a fluke of history.
I won't say that China will never become economically dominate, but it's a very long ways off. Before they even have a chance they will have to radically change both their politics and culture to encourage free thinking and non-conformity, which are at the heart of scientific and technological dominance. And, in this day and age, scientific and technological advancement has become the most important and powerful method of creating new wealth and securing economic dominance...a trend that is only likely to grow as human labour at all levels becomes less and less significant.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:24 PM   #54

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Yes 6 years is a really long way off to surpass the American economy. You truly believe that the US is some supreme mastermind that engineered the Chinese economic miracle only to control the Chinese with debt?

Its like a bunch of foolish Roman elites relying on debt to enslave their population only to end up being destroyed by Barbarians formerly employed as mercenaries against Roman Rivals. You put too much faith in the ability of the US to destroy a rival China without destroying its own self.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #55
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Yes 6 years is a really long way off to surpass the American economy. You truly believe that the US is some supreme mastermind that engineered the Chinese economic miracle only to control the Chinese with debt?
It seems to be working, but we're also in the process of hedging our bets with the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership to strengthen our economic control of the region and increase pressure on China.

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Its like a bunch of foolish Roman elites relying on debt to enslave their population only to end up being destroyed by Barbarians formerly employed as mercenaries against Roman Rivals. You put too much faith in the ability of the US to destroy a rival China without destroying its own self.
You seem to have an unrealistically rosy view of the situation in China. It's certainly far more prosperous than it was 30 years ago, but there are significant underlying problems. Much of the growth in wealth has been restricted to the coastal provinces and still has a very large poor and uneducated population capable of little productivity. And in the regions that have grown wealthier we are starting to see the growth of a middle class which has inevitably demanded greater political power and influence as well as the conveniences and opportunities of their western counterparts. As wealth in China increases the power of the middle class will grow, westernization will increase, and this will cause ever increasing problems for the current government. It's the same problem the British Empire had, it's one thing to control a bunch of poor, uneducated peasants...it's entirely another to control an affluent, educated middle class. The current situation is incredibly unstable and it wouldn't take much to undermine it.

I do hope and believe that China will continue to grow as an economic power and will eventually work through these issues. But until it reduces its population, increases access to opportunity, democratizes, and can finally produce substantial excess capital to effectively reinvest, it isn't going to even challenge the US's place in the global economy. Right now, Europe poses more of a threat to our position than China...and it's not enough of a threat for us to even be concerned about.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #56

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America ---The empire on which the sun will never set.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #57

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chiang rule china in 1927.

japan invade china in 1937.


just check the Population growth rate in 38 years when KMT rule china.
Before I respond, I want to point out that both you and Ming are bias in favor of Mao. In Ming's case it seems to be because he is grateful to Mao for helping his family in bad times. I suppose there were some people who were able to escape very bad conditions in China after Mao took over, and Chiang might not have given them homes the same way, but overall the nation fared poorly under Mao's rule.

In your case, Fang, you seem to have unquestionable loyalty to this. You seem to side with Mao no matter what. In some ways such devoted loyalty is admirable, but there is one thing Mao knew how to do which made him dangerous. He knew how to blind people with loyal support of him. The Red Guards were blinded by loyalty to him, to the point that they were willing to torture and kill other Chinese people for his sake. Today, some of them regret what they did, and they warn others about his. Even the women Mao had displayed blindness, because they didn't just want Mao, they wanted his disease.

Now let's look at the points you've made.

We both know that in 1927 China was a land in chaos. The mess after the fall of the Qing had made way for warlords to take over many areas, and crime was a way of life. Chiang formed alliances with warlords because it was the only way to unite the country, and bringing China out of such a bad situation could not have been accomplished in just 10 years. That was one of the main reasons people in the country side preferred communism. They were desperate for a way out, but many of them didn't even understand what communism was.

The population growth under the KMT does not indicate that Mao was better than Chiang Kai Shek. Chiang was faced with too many factors beyond his control, while Mao created the crisis.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #58

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Chiang didn't unite China through just brute military force. He united China through appeasing various warlords. Those warlords swore loyalty to him, but in reality they ran their regions with great power. Even with the Japanese, Chiang would first have to take down all those warlords.

Who said anything about Chiang uniting China through just brute force? He was a politician who did what he had to in difficult times.
Did Mao not form alliances with warlords? Were Mao's warlords better?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #59

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chiang, president, Military personnel.
lee, vice president, military personnel.

" democratic", indeed.

how did wen yiduo and li gongpu die?
How did Liu Shaoqi die? What was his crime? Why did he go to jail?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:02 PM   #60

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How did Liu Shaoqi die? What was his crime? Why did he go to jail?
There is a three part documentary that discusses 20th Century China in detail. It is called China: A Century of Revolution. Part II discusses the mao years and the reasons he had both Liu Shaoqi and Peng Dehuai murdered.

Zeitgeist Films | China: A Century of Revolution

http://kat.ph/china-a-century-of-rev...i-t726291.html
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