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Old January 18th, 2013, 03:13 PM   #61

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There is a three part documentary that discusses 20th Century China in detail. It is called China: A Century of Revolution. Part II discusses the mao years and the reasons he had both Liu Shaoqi and Peng Dehuai murdered.

Zeitgeist Films | China: A Century of Revolution

http://kat.ph/china-a-century-of-rev...i-t726291.html
Yes, I own a copy. If anybody was loyal to China it was Liu Shaoqi. But, the idea of some people liking him more than Mao was too much for Mao to handle.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 04:00 PM   #62
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Who said anything about Chiang uniting China through just brute force? He was a politician who did what he had to in difficult times.
Did Mao not form alliances with warlords? Were Mao's warlords better?
Which alliances?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 04:01 PM   #63
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Chiang built up secret armies to take down the warlords during World War 2. Chiang also sent secret armies to push the Soviet Union out of Xinjiang and make Sheng Shicai step down in 1943. There were secret KMT khamba armies fighting warlords and communists in Sichuans, and also he sent them into Tibet to assert control from the Dalai Lama. He had Long Yun overthrown immediately after he ordered Long Yun to occupy French Indo China, and he also managed to make some warlords do constructive work, like making Ma Bufang send soldiers to Xinjiang against separatists and fight Mongolia. Chiang made the French give up their concessions in China and supported anti French guerillas in Vietnam.
Sources, sources, sources.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #64
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Both Mao and Chiang are strongman, Mao got to play with Mainland China with much larger population, and as a resulted he killed a lot more people.

Chiang got to play with TW, he also suppressed and killed many locals, but since it is just a small island he killed far less.

But I think it is safe to say if Chiang got to chance to play with mainland China he would have killed less than Mao, HOWEVER his rule won't be all sunshine and rainbow as many people here suggests.

What's done is done, China is currently on the right path, there is no need for second guessing anymore.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 04:44 PM   #65

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Which alliances?
Take the alliance with the Gelaohui society, for instance.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #66

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I'll readily admit I'm rusty on the issue, but the general impression given of Chiang I've noticed is that of an inept leader when he was in charge of the mainland, which is why he eventually lost to Mao. He was more concerned about the Communists than fighting the Japanese, which caused his generals to kidnap him to force him to make peace with Mao. IIRC, Americans were irritated with the corruption and incompetence of the KMT during WWII.

How fair an assessment is this? This is a rough summary of the common image presented of Chiang among Americans.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 05:08 PM   #67

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I'll readily admit I'm rusty on the issue, but the general impression given of Chiang I've noticed is that of an inept leader when he was in charge of the mainland, which is why he eventually lost to Mao. He was more concerned about the Communists than fighting the Japanese, which caused his generals to kidnap him to force him to make peace with Mao. IIRC, Americans were irritated with the corruption and incompetence of the KMT during WWII.

How fair an assessment is this? This is a rough summary of the common image presented of Chiang among Americans.
That is an accurate summation.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 05:29 PM   #68

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Chiang got to play with TW, he also suppressed and killed many locals, but since it is just a small island he killed far less.
Can you tell us precisely how many locals did chiang kill?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 05:32 PM   #69

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412 event?


at least not massacred by the strong leader himself.
1. 412 event:

Shanghai_massacre_of_1927 Shanghai_massacre_of_1927

look like “democracy” chiang had not gave chance to shanghai's workers to live.

2. at least there had not any foreign countries can go into china's inland and capital to make massacre.

if you want to say about Great leap forward and Cultural revolution, just check the kmt's rule records.

dare to check the population growth rate in kmt's rule time?

Last edited by fangqingming; January 18th, 2013 at 05:41 PM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 05:40 PM   #70

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Before I respond, I want to point out that both you and Ming are bias in favor of Mao. In Ming's case it seems to be because he is grateful to Mao for helping his family in bad times. I suppose there were some people who were able to escape very bad conditions in China after Mao took over, and Chiang might not have given them homes the same way, but overall the nation fared poorly under Mao's rule.

In your case, Fang, you seem to have unquestionable loyalty to this. You seem to side with Mao no matter what. In some ways such devoted loyalty is admirable, but there is one thing Mao knew how to do which made him dangerous. He knew how to blind people with loyal support of him. The Red Guards were blinded by loyalty to him, to the point that they were willing to torture and kill other Chinese people for his sake. Today, some of them regret what they did, and they warn others about his. Even the women Mao had displayed blindness, because they didn't just want Mao, they wanted his disease.

Now let's look at the points you've made.

We both know that in 1927 China was a land in chaos. The mess after the fall of the Qing had made way for warlords to take over many areas, and crime was a way of life. Chiang formed alliances with warlords because it was the only way to unite the country, and bringing China out of such a bad situation could not have been accomplished in just 10 years. That was one of the main reasons people in the country side preferred communism. They were desperate for a way out, but many of them didn't even understand what communism was.

The population growth under the KMT does not indicate that Mao was better than Chiang Kai Shek. Chiang was faced with too many factors beyond his control, while Mao created the crisis.
I was born far after the time when mao died.

mao and chiang both are historical roles for me.

that doesn't mean I am loyalty to mao, one thing is one thing.

ps: that is why I didn't like to join into the discussion about mao or Great leap forward or cultural revolution, because I don't want others to gave me one label to say I am mao activist.

if you want to ask me about chiang's contribution, I can say some too, but chiang's contribution is far lower than mao, and kmt's work is far lower than ccp.

I only watch the transcript, don't watch the character.

that is why I gave the mention to population growth rate, because population growth rate don't lie.

you can try to list all kmt's records and ccp's, you will finde chinese people had enough reason to choice mao, not chiang.

Last edited by fangqingming; January 18th, 2013 at 06:39 PM.
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