fledse

Well, I was watching some video in youtube, and one comment attracted my sight. "It is said that Korea is the subject kingdom for Chinese empires because they paid tributes to China, and I wonder how Koreans are thinking about that."


It is surprising that Korea is described as the subject nation, or vasal state, for Chinese empires in history department in western universities.

That is probably because I, a native Korean, was educated differently on history, but here goes my answer.


It is confirmed that before the meiji revolution, Japan also paid lots of tributes and wanted to be part of Chinese emperor and the emperor's subject, but no body in western universities dare to describe Japan as the subject nation under China.


Historically, there are lots of sources that Japan paid special products to Chinese emperors and powerful Japanese politicians were bestowed the post from China.


Korea was the very same, but are differently described, which is my main answer to this tribute system.


So this is why I would say Korea is not subject kingdom of Chinese emperor as Japan is described as independent kingdom from China.


Secondly, by which definition we are now judging this kingdom is not independent? It is mostly the concept of soverignty that determines if the nation is independent or not.


Lots of national affairs are not managed by ones appointed by Chinese emperor, but indigenous Korean and Japanese influent politicians such as King and powerful clan in region.


In fact, exactly one time in Korea's entire history, there was a Mongolian directly appointed by Wuan emperor, and he was the full authority who decided what to do in Korea (though there was a king in Korea, but he did not have lots of authorities).


Without that, the national affairs were decided and considered by Korea's own people until Korea was fully annexted into Japan exactly 1 centuries ago (1909).


Lastly, the tribute system should be understood somewhat differently.

Even in European history, where Spanish and French paid lots of money and labors (tributes) for Roman Pope, no body describes the Spanish and French are the subject kingdom of the Roman Pope.


That is probably because the separtation between religion and politics, but the Pope anyhow could influence a lot in lots of European kingdom in lots of way.


Similarly Chinese emperor should be understood in this vein.

I mean, Chinese emperor indeed also has full authorities in his subject, but he was also looked upon as the son of the heaven, who, in Confucianism that was the most spread religion in Asia, is believed to be the closest entity between the heaven and normal citizens.

So, as if Spanish and French paid what I described as tributes to the Roman Pope who was believed the same in the Christianity, Korean and Japanese did exactly the same to the Chinese emperor who was also believed the same like the Pope.

The only difference between the Europe and the Asia is that there was more concrete concept between religion and politics in Europe while religion and politics were almost consolidated into one in Asia.


You know, actaully The Roman Pope in the medieval had lots of authorities and politically very center of the European kingdom.

I should admit the Korean history scholars are very very rare in western universities, and they don't even communicate a lot with western history scholars, (I suspect English phobia.lol.) but that does not mean the historical facts should be judged by different values and different people (especially Chinese scholars).

I am admitting that Korea was the sole subject under Japanese colonial time (1909~1945), but except that, we are independent.

JerseyPerson14

Most asian countries had to pay China tribute, even the nomads

There were times when they did not

It does not mean they were subjects per say, they were all independant nations

It was similar to what the byzantine/romans had with everyone else

Japan eventually conquered korea and parts of china one hundred years ago. so yes korea was the subject kingdom of japan

China did conquer parts of what is now north korea, but I do not think that was korea back then

Toltec

The system was more than just paying tribute. There was no Chinese term back them for embassy just tributary. A foriegn embassy would have to do three things, pay tribute, kow tow to the emperor (banging head on floor nine times) and officially state in writing that you their nation was the property of the Chinese Emperor.

Not only did Koreans do all the the above, the Japanese Shogun did, even the French and US delegations did it too.

Voskhod

Indeed, the Chinese tribute system was very far from vassalage in the European Middle Ages. The submission to the Imperial court was more ceremonial than anything else. The otherwise fully independent "vassals" acknowledged the fiction that the Son of Heaven was ruler of the world, and these countries gets favours and trade from China. So paying tribute did not necessary mean political, diplomatic, social or economic control for China (or any other East Asian powers at the time) over a nation.

Toltec

I like to think it was not a fiction and China with its growing power will oneday reassert its claims on its vassals.

YamatoTakeru

I don't know much about Korea history, but I'll share what I know. In a way Korea has suffered from a sort-of tug-a-war between China and Japan. Korea in ancient times was invaded by Chinese forces. They established a few colonies on the peninsula, the most important of which was Lolang (near modern day Pyongyang). However, their influence waned and the fourth centuries the three major kingdoms emerged: Koguryo in the north extending into Manchuria, Paekche (or Baekche) in the southwest, and Silla in the southeast. There was also another kingdom, Mimana or Kaya, which may or may not have been Japanese. Still, historians regard this as the Three Kingdoms Period.

Archeologists found a monument in Manchuria dating from the late 300s, put there by a Koguryo king. In it he brags defeating the Japanese in battle. The Japanese had apparently attacked Silla and maybe Paekche too, but were driven back. Still the Japanese tried to assert their dominance over Korean kingdoms during the 400s, but with limited success. By the 500s, the Korean kingdoms were asserting themselves and the Japanese were retreating even from Mimana.

During the 600s, Silla allied with the Tang Chinese and overcame Paekche and Koguryo, uniting Korea and establishing the first of three dynasties. The later dynasties were Koryo and Choson (which lasted until 1910 when the Japanese annexed Korea). The only time Korean independence was compromised during that period I believe was when the Mongols took over.

I do remember seeing an old map in a book dating from the Qin Dynasty that included Korea as a part of China. However, Korea was independent in that era. The fact that they paid tribute doesn't negate that. It was a way for the Koreans to keep in a good relationship with China.

I hope that helps and that I didn't rant too much.

Jebusrocks

Archeologists found a monument in Manchuria dating from the late 300s, put there by a Koguryo king.
It wasn't 'found' the Gwanggaeto Stele is one of the most famous steles in Asia...

Japan is widely believed as a subject to Baekje during these eras; hence when Gwanggaeto extended his influence to Silla and Baekje, Wa came into aid Baekje and destroyed Silla; but was defeated by Gwang at Pyongyang.
It is also noted that the Stele is now damaged due to the fact that the Japanese tried to re-write history (though I'm surprised they didn't just blow it off like they did with the other Korean documents and castles....

Korea was a vassal state of China in some of its history, there is no doubt of that. The Joseon (a dynasty that dominated Korea for some six centuries) was a vassal state to both the Ming and the Qing. Even as a Korean, there is no doubt that China is a much stronger nation during almost all its history; than the Koreans; after all, Korea, in most of its history, only dominated the Korean peninsula and the southern areas of Manchuria; comparably smaller in population (though nowhere near the ratio as it is today) and area. I believe the only time Korea was strong than China was during the reign of Jaoji Hwanung, though most of his successes lay in mystery.

@Jerseyperson - When Japan successfully conquered the Korean empire; Korea was not a subject kingdom; but a part of Japan. Japan tried in every effort to destroy Korean identity during these times.

YamatoTakeru

Well, according to William Wayne Farris ("Sacred Texts and Buried Treasures" p.61), Ching dynasty officials 'discovered' the stele and began maintaining it in 1880. I suppose I'd say it was rediscovered. From what I gather, the existence of the stele wasn't widely known before that.

Here's another interesting tidbit about China's relationship that I read about the other day. After Paekche and Koguryo were defeated by the Silla/Tang alliance, in 667, the Tang sent a final army to the peninsula and tried to rule Silla as a province. However, the Koreans wouldn't have it and drove the Tang out in 676.

Jebusrocks

It was merely out of reach; and maybe forgotten after the fall of Goguryeo; but never lost.


Yeah; the Tang put in Do Ho Boos in former Goguryeo; which was to be led by several Tang officials; they wanted the same system for Silla and Munmu (who has been sucking up to Tang at the time in order to take revenge on Baekje); and destroys the Tang army at Maeso. The war finally ends with Xue Rengui (an infamous general of the Tang) unable to penetrate Silla's navy; returned to Tang, with the unification of the Korean peninsula to follow; the first time (by a Korean faction) since Gwanggaeto.