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Old May 16th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #11
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I think I need to post some pictures.

Here's the facial reconstruction of the Minatogawa Man

Click the image to open in full size.


And here's the facial reconstruction of the Liujiang Man

Click the image to open in full size.


I think they were somewhat similar. Possible haplogroup D connection, maybe?
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Old May 16th, 2013, 10:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket7777 View Post
Sort of regional detail/specific of my claim of "Out of Asia"


"Some brown skin curly hair people spread (Vedda type)east in 2nd wave. Some acquired haplogroup D.

3rd wave probably straight hair medium skin tone people. I would guess that they had projectile weapon advantage and quickly took over any areas."

Out of Asia
My theory is based on the Out of Africa theory, not on your Out of Asia theory.

I think the first wave of modern humans that came to Eastern Asia was haplogroup D, the second wave was haplogroup C, and the third wave was haplogroups N, O, and Q. Haplogroup C mutated to haplogroup C3 somewhere in East or Northeast Asia, and this haplogroup is probably the determinant or the founding population of the Asian Mongoloid race that we know today.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 12:12 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
My theory is based on the Out of Africa theory, not on your Out of Asia theory.

I think the first wave of modern humans that came to Eastern Asia was haplogroup D, the second wave was haplogroup C, and the third wave was haplogroups N, O, and Q. Haplogroup C mutated to haplogroup C3 somewhere in East or Northeast Asia, and this haplogroup is probably the determinant or the founding population of the Asian Mongoloid race that we know today.
After coming out of africa, did black stay pure black? absolutely not.
And according to current studies, 4% Neanderthal gene is eveyone else which means it is VERY VERY likely, most important thing to happened in brains which allowed civilization to form. So this mix blood was basis of rest of world and back to some of africa.

Some of it was negrito haplogroup D, fast coastal migration all way to japan...

Last edited by rocket7777; May 17th, 2013 at 12:19 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 12:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket7777 View Post
After coming out of africa, did black stay pure black? absolutely not.
And according to current studies, 4% Neanderthal gene is eveyone else which means it is VERY VERY likely, most important thing to happened in brains which allowed civilization to form. So this mix blood was basis of rest of world and back to some of africa.

Some of it was negrito haplogroup D, fast coastal migration all way to japan...
I never suggest that all the Out of Africa migrants were black are they remained unchanged. From my theory, it's obvious that I agree that they changed and adapted to their environments. I don't even know why you are mentioning this.

And why do you think that the original M168 Out of Africa migrants were black? Maybe they were Khoisan-looking peoples.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 12:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
I think I need to post some pictures.

Here's the facial reconstruction of the Minatogawa Man

Click the image to open in full size.


And here's the facial reconstruction of the Liujiang Man

Click the image to open in full size.


I think they were somewhat similar. Possible haplogroup D connection, maybe?
Nope. D is mostly negrito. They look pure african pygmy.
"Pygmy Negritos of the Andaman Islands"

Northern japanese and ainu have good percentage of D, but Y gene is basically is only 1/(46+1mito) so like 2% of gene, so can get really thin.

What you posted look around 2nd/3rd wave perhaps mixed with 5-10% negrito in japan.

Looks can be very deceiving since you can have like 3/4 black 1/4 white have children with 1/4 black 3/4 white and probably look similar to 1/2 black/white having kid with 1/2 black and 1/2 white.

Anyway, what you posted is my guess for how jomon looked from vietnam to japan and including west china and taiwan.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 01:05 AM   #16
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very interesting question. Your observations are mainly correct. The fact, that NOP exists and that Q and R are descendents of P and that among both we have no mongolides is clearly a fact, that the mongolisation must be younger than the split of NOP. Your observation, that the grade of mongolisation is especially high among C3 is not wrong as well.
But I would not link the process of mongolisation with a special haplotype. C3 is simply dominant in the region were the mongolisation process started or that was most influenced by the process of mongolisation.
The existance of O as dominant type among most asians makes it questionable, that C3 is the original group of mongolide. More probable is, that O as well was affected.
So O-M122 is a perfectly candidate for such a mongolisation process, too. It's age is estimated at 25-30ky. But that doesn't mean, that the mongolisation already happened at that time.
Mongolide appearence was once said to be an adaption to cold and dry climates. I don't know if something has changed meanwhile. So cause C3 has a high grade of mongolisation as well, we should assume, that during the last glacial maximum the mongolisation process began and affected people in Mongolia, Manchuria and Northern China, among them people with C (as younger group) and people with O-M122. I think it is not implausible, that these O people later evolved agriculture in the Huang he region and regions were the Xia dynasty originated. The distribution of agriculture and the chinese expansion may then have supported the process of mongolisation into the south, but they don't have to be the only reason.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 06:56 AM   #17
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edit: nvm

Last edited by Hansaram; May 17th, 2013 at 07:55 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 07:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
very interesting question. Your observations are mainly correct. The fact, that NOP exists and that Q and R are descendents of P and that among both we have no mongolides is clearly a fact, that the mongolisation must be younger than the split of NOP. Your observation, that the grade of mongolisation is especially high among C3 is not wrong as well.
But I would not link the process of mongolisation with a special haplotype. C3 is simply dominant in the region were the mongolisation process started or that was most influenced by the process of mongolisation.
The existance of O as dominant type among most asians makes it questionable, that C3 is the original group of mongolide. More probable is, that O as well was affected.
So O-M122 is a perfectly candidate for such a mongolisation process, too. It's age is estimated at 25-30ky. But that doesn't mean, that the mongolisation already happened at that time.
Mongolide appearence was once said to be an adaption to cold and dry climates. I don't know if something has changed meanwhile. So cause C3 has a high grade of mongolisation as well, we should assume, that during the last glacial maximum the mongolisation process began and affected people in Mongolia, Manchuria and Northern China, among them people with C (as younger group) and people with O-M122. I think it is not implausible, that these O people later evolved agriculture in the Huang he region and regions were the Xia dynasty originated. The distribution of agriculture and the chinese expansion may then have supported the process of mongolisation into the south, but they don't have to be the only reason.
Your theory sounds plausible, but there are a few questions. First of all, I don't think haplogroup O expanded to north Asia during the LGM. I think they probably expanded north after the ice age had ended, about 10000 years ago. The haplogroups among Native Americans are good indicators of the Paleolithic Siberian North Asian haplogroups, because before arriving at the Americas people need to first arrive at Eastern Siberia to cross the Bering Strait. Geneticists cannot find any traces of haplogroups N, O, and D among Native Americans, they only find haplogroup Q and some C3b. This suggests that haplogroups Q and C3 were probably the earliest inhabitants of Eastern Siberia and North Asia.

Secondly, it's known that the gradual process of mongolisation still continued well into the Neolithic Age and possibly into the Bronze Age. Chinese anthropologists had examined the skeletons of the Neolithic agricultural peoples of Northern China, and they concluded that these peoples had more southern traits than modernday Northern Chinese. Chinese anthropologists also concluded that the first modern East Asian traits seemed to have appeared among the inhabitants of Neolithic and Bronze Age Inner Mongolia. But even during the Bronze Age, there were probably still a few southern-looking populations left in Northern China. Chinese geneticists examined the Da Shan Qian Warring States tomb found in Northeast China, and they found that these peoples had high frequencies of mitochondrial maternal haplogroups B and F, similar to present-day southern populations.

My guess is that some Neolithic peoples in Inner Mongolia first acquired the modernday East Asian Mongoloid look, and they spread it to other parts of East Asia.

Last edited by purakjelia; May 17th, 2013 at 07:46 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 08:06 AM   #19
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You don't need to track haplotypes for physical appearances. The percentages are misleading. They don't correlate very well in my opinion.

A far better way to look at this is, some sort of beauty or appearance standard set by rulers of East Asia. It put their phenotypes in high demand. Any existing features in surrounding populations were skewed towards these highly demanded features.

I do believe the rulers of East Asia came from Siberia or northeast Asia in neolithic. I do believe this is where the Mongolic features evolved.

Just imagine a society that starts off with a small amount of mongolic features. The upper class of this kingdom admire China greatly. The wives they take tend to have Chinese/Mongolic features, because they think its all superior and whatnot. The descendents of upper class tend to survive better, and for this reason, the mongolic features become more and more widespread in the population (without really affecting the male haplotypes percentages).
Why they are Chinese/Mongolic features? I have already shown that the early inhabitants of China didn't really have those features, or at least they had less Mongolic features than modernday Northeast Asians. The inhabitants of Neolithic and Bronze Age Inner Mongolia first acquired the modernday East Asian look, but at that time Inner Mongolia was not under Huaxia Chinese control. The Huaxia peoples of Central China called those peoples Rong Di, which sort of means Northern Babarians.

But I do agree with you that there was some sort of beauty selection or intermixing which caused these Mongolic traits to spread. The scenario that you described might have happened in Neolithic or Bronze Age China as well. Perhaps ancient Chinese men found that northern women are taller and paler than their own women, so they chose to marry with northern women, and their descendants would have more Mongolic features.

It's known that Northern Han Chinese and Xianbei had been intermixing with one another during the Northern and Southern dynasties period around 5th to 6th century AD. Han had taken Xianbei women and Xianbei had taken Han women. The royal families of Sui and Tang dynasties had Han paternal bloodline and Xianbei maternal bloodline.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 07:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
Why they are Chinese/Mongolic features? I have already shown that the early inhabitants of China didn't really have those features, or at least they had less Mongolic features than modernday Northeast Asians. The inhabitants of Neolithic and Bronze Age Inner Mongolia first acquired the modernday East Asian look, but at that time Inner Mongolia was not under Huaxia Chinese control. The Huaxia peoples of Central China called those peoples Rong Di, which sort of means Northern Babarians.

But I do agree with you that there was some sort of beauty selection or intermixing which caused these Mongolic traits to spread. The scenario that you described might have happened in Neolithic or Bronze Age China as well. Perhaps ancient Chinese men found that northern women are taller and paler than their own women, so they chose to marry with northern women, and their descendants would have more Mongolic features.

It's known that Northern Han Chinese and Xianbei had been intermixing with one another during the Northern and Southern dynasties period around 5th to 6th century AD. Han had taken Xianbei women and Xianbei had taken Han women. The royal families of Sui and Tang dynasties had Han paternal bloodline and Xianbei maternal bloodline.
The rulers and nobility of the ancient Huaxia were probably mongolics who invaded China, learned the language, employed sinitic scribes, and intermarried with sinitic nobles. Much like the Xianbei would do later. When their dynasties fell, they might have moved back to the steppes. They were never firmly established, but just through the sheer frequency of successful invasion dynasties and intermixing, they were able to affect the appearance of the sinitic landed gentry.

I believe Xia, Shang, Zhou were Mongolic conquest dynasties. This is based on the geography and the pattern of Chinese history, among other things like archeology. Even if most Chinese are O3, their appearance is skewed towards mongolics, due to frequent intermarriage between sinitic noblemen with the women of mongolic conquerors. Either way, we end up with a push towards mongolic features in China, and in the populations surrounding China that admire China.

btw, thanks for saving my post. i had lost faith in it and deleted it, but i guess i should have left it.

Last edited by Hansaram; May 19th, 2013 at 08:06 AM.
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