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Old July 12th, 2013, 08:40 AM   #1
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Proof Chinese civilization was founded in Liangzhu


I can expect some naysayers to disagree but they found a lot of writing. The burden of proof now resides for those that want to say that Shang oracle bone writing did not come from Liangzhu. Lest they also want to say Chinese writing now did not come from Shang. I can feel the yellow river nationalists just burning to find some earlier symbols that can be recognized as words/writing now lol.

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Ancient 'writing' found in China

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Ancient 'writing' found in China


Thu, 11 Jul 2013 11:27a.m.
Click the image to open in full size. Etchings seen on a 5,000-year-old tablet



By Didi Tang
Archaeologists say they have discovered some of the world's oldest known primitive writing, dating back about 5,000 years, in eastern China, and some of the markings etched on broken axes resemble a modern Chinese character.
The inscriptions on artefacts found at a relic site south of Shanghai are about 1,400 years older than the oldest written Chinese language. Chinese scholars are divided over whether the markings are words or something simpler, but they say the finding will shed light on the origins of Chinese language and culture.
The oldest writing in the world is believed to be from Mesopotamia, dating back slightly more than 5,000 years. Chinese characters are believed to have been developed independently.
Inscriptions were found on more than 200 pieces dug out from the Neolithic-era Liangzhu relic site. The pieces are among thousands of fragments of ceramic, stone, jade, wood, ivory and bone excavated from the site between 2003 and 2006, lead archaeologist Xu Xinmin said.
The inscriptions have not been reviewed by experts outside the country, but a group of Chinese scholars on archaeology and ancient writing met last weekend in Zhejiang province to discuss the finding.
They agreed that the inscriptions are not enough to indicate a developed writing system, but Xu said they include evidence of words on two broken stone-ax pieces.
One of the pieces has six word-like shapes strung together to resemble a short sentence.


"They are different from the symbols we have seen in the past on artefacts," Xu said. "The shapes and the fact that they are in a sentence-like pattern indicate they are expressions of some meaning."
The six characters are arranged in a line, and three of them resemble the modern Chinese character for human beings. Each shape has two to five strokes.
"If five to six of them are strung together like a sentence, they are no longer symbols but words," said Cao Jinyan, a scholar on ancient writing at Hangzhou-based Zhejiang University. He said the markings should be considered hieroglyphics.
He said there are also stand-alone shapes with more strokes. "If you look at the composition, you will see they are more than symbols," Cao said.
But archaeologist Liu Zhao from Shanghai-based Fudan University warned that there was not sufficient material for any conclusion.
"I don't think they should be considered writing by the strictest definition," Liu said. "We do not have enough material to pin down the stage of those markings in the history of ancient writings."
For now, the Chinese scholars have agreed to call it primitive writing, a vague term that suggests the Liangzhu markings are somewhere between symbols and words.
The oldest known Chinese writing has been found on animal bones - known as oracle bones - dating to 3,600 years ago during the Shang dynasty.
AP




Read more: Ancient 'writing' found in China - Story - Environment/Sci - 3 News
http://www.3news.co.nz/Ancient-writi...#ixzz2YqkKoBtz
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Old July 12th, 2013, 01:13 PM   #2
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Being positioned at the mouth of the Yangtze River, the Liangzhu would have been an economically powerful region through control of the trade that goes in and out of the major waterway. Economic power translates into greater patronage of arts. The Yellow River on the other hand would have been a frontier bordering nomadic regions to the north so military would have been the focus.

Of course both sides had to have some military, economics, and arts. But its doubtful the Yellow River was ever under the political control of the lower Yangtze, considering that the northern areas were most likely better at military organization and fighting.

Last edited by Hansaram; July 12th, 2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 01:42 PM   #3
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Lol both were river based societies. They aren't like the Mongols you are thinking of who are probably placed somewhere else at this time. There isn't a lot to offer, in my knowledge, of the Mongolics in China at this time. Maybe Hongshan. In any case they would be the second wave of non Chinese immigrants after the Tibeto Burmans. In discussing the movement of writing it is probably important to note who was moving faster however. Obviously the Sinitic region was. And the solution to writing in sentences was likely to have been the creative pursuit of Liangzhu. I think chasing after the pursuits of Yangshao, Longshan (other than Liangzhu and Dawenkou), Hongshan, Tapengkeng etc will yield very limited results.

Last edited by wingerman; July 12th, 2013 at 01:52 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #4
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Do you know that trade single handedly gives you the upperhand when it comes to influence? It is high tech manufacture that runs the wealth of the world. Who in the world would have funded the building of railroads. Not nomadic armies, obviously. It is the banks that run the world and set the price and allow you to either sweat along with the rest of those that have it tough or to take it easy breezy. Of course banks also need some military to back them up.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 05:39 PM   #5
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The Yellow River and the lower Yangtze would have lived such different lifestyles from each other that a divergence in culture and identity would have occurred inevitably. Then they would converge due to military expansion of the northern states.

According to history, the northerners often took over the more economically superior lower Yangtze region, which directly contradicts your idea that economic superiority is everything.

Last edited by Hansaram; July 12th, 2013 at 05:46 PM.
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Old July 13th, 2013, 08:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansaram View Post
The Yellow River and the lower Yangtze would have lived such different lifestyles from each other that a divergence in culture and identity would have occurred inevitably. Then they would converge due to military expansion of the northern states.

According to history, the northerners often took over the more economically superior lower Yangtze region, which directly contradicts your idea that economic superiority is everything.
Yes and they all got sinicized. It's a moot point that military superiority amounts to anything beyond the initial affected radius of barbaric destruction. It does not make Chinese civilization into a reversion to barbarism. Even locusts can be like Mongols but soon become meal for those that feed on the them.
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Old July 13th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #7
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Hansaram remember what you said about the Sinitic being midpoint? What do you think of my map? It ties in to your outlook on Dravidic influences for Japonic.

Click the image to open in full size.
Right click for options. Open in a new tab to zoom in.

Last edited by wingerman; July 13th, 2013 at 01:41 PM.
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Old July 13th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #8
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I'm not certain that portrait of Amaterasu is reliable, as I am unable to find out what it was based on. Take a look at this Tang Dynasty portrait of envoys from Korea and Wa.
Click the image to open in full size.
Left is Wa. Middle is Silla. Right is Baekje.

I presume Wa is referring to Japan, although I can't be certain. Can anyone explain what is going on here? This ambassador from Wa doesn't look very Japanese.
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Old July 13th, 2013, 10:58 PM   #9

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"Sorry, I asked a question that I do not think there is an acceptable answer to."
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Old July 14th, 2013, 12:36 AM   #10
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^Maybe.

Last edited by Hansaram; July 14th, 2013 at 01:16 AM.
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