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Old July 27th, 2013, 02:23 AM   #1
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Difference between proto-Mongolic peoples and proto-Sinitic peoples


Western people tend to overgeneralize East Asian appearance and they think that Chinese, Mongols, Koreans, and Japanese all look the same. I can tell you that this is definitely not the case. In fact, East Asian peoples have a higher diversity than you might have previously expected.

Recently I noticed that some members on this forum seem to have confounded Sinitic peoples with Mongolic peoples. Chinese and Mongols have different origins, different culture, different history, and even different Y-DNA haplogroups. The majority of Mongolians belong to haplogroup C3, while the majority of Chinese belong to haplogroup O.

I will post a few facial reconstructions to further illustrate the difference between proto-Mongolics and proto-Sinitics. Let the skulls tell the truth.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 02:29 AM   #2
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Facial reconstruction of a proto-Mongolic Xianbei man who lived around 2000 years BP, based on a skull discovered in an ancient Xianbei tomb located at Dongdajing in Northeast China. Chinese archaeologists discovered 12 male skeletons in the Dongdajing tomb, and all of them belong to haplogroup C3*. This Donghu Xianbei man looked like typical North Asians.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by purakjelia; July 27th, 2013 at 02:53 AM.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 02:33 AM   #3
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Facial reconstructions of proto-Sinitic Yangshao man and woman, about 5000 years before present. They looked like Southeast Asians, especially the man to the left.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 02:41 AM   #4
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Facial reconstruction of the skull of a proto-Sinitic man who lived around 6000 years before present, discovered in Jiangsu province in Eastern China. He had large eyes and he looked like Southeast Asian Malay.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by purakjelia; July 27th, 2013 at 02:44 AM.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 03:05 AM   #5
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Haplogroup O originated from somewhere in Southeast Asia or Southern China around 35000 BP. Haplogroup O was originally not a Northeast Asian Mongoloid haplogroup, instead it was a southern haplogroup and the first carriers of this haplogroup might look like Austronesians or Melanesians or Austro-Asiatics. The northward expansion of haplogroup O peoples only started after the LGM at around 10000 years BP.

Haplogroups M, N, O, P, S had a common ancestor called MNOPS or K-M526. Nowadays, you can detect haplogroups K, M, and S among the aboriginal peoples of the Papua New-Guinean highlands.

Indo-European haplogroup R and Native American haplogroup Q are the descendants of haplogroup P, which in turn is descended from haplogroup NOP and MNOPS. The carriers of haplogroups R and Q certainly don't look like Mongoloid. Since R and Q are the cousins of haplogroup O, therefore it's most likely that haplogroup O was originally not Northeast Asian Mongoloid.

Last edited by purakjelia; July 27th, 2013 at 03:19 AM.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 03:39 AM   #6
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Haplogroup C is an ancient haplogroup. It's one of the oldest haplogroups outside of Africa. The estimated age of haplogroup C is about 50000 years BP, much older than haplogroup O. Haplogroup C represents a coastal migration from southern Arabia and southern India all the way to Southeast Asia and northwards to populate East Asia.

Although the original haplogroup C might be a southern haplogroup, its sub branch haplogroup C3 is definitely a northern haplogroup. Recent genetic evidence suggest that C*, C1, C5, and other southern C sub-branches are closely related, while the northern C3 is only distantly related to its southern cousins. Considering that the estimated age of haplogroup C is very old and its sub-branches have had a very long time to adapt to the environment of different regions of Asia and Oceania, the differences between C3 and its southern cousins might be even larger than the differences between the descendants of NOP. The northward expansion of haplogroup C3 happened around 40000 years BP, and these ancient hunter-gatherers had reached Northeast Asia around 15000 to 20000 BP. I believe that the carriers of haplogroup C3 were the first peoples to evolve Mongoloid characteristics.

Nowadays, haplogroup C3 is found at high frequencies among Mongolic and Tungusic peoples. These peoples have typical Mongoloid traits.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 06:12 AM   #7
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any proof that the genetic differences can express on the facial appearance?
that's the very fundament of the discussion of facial differences.
in any wrong hands, the facial differences are useless points

wish you are not going to tell us that the purity of Hans can be seen from the face...........
typical counter example is that the so called Xianbei people were already part of the Hans years ago...
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Old July 28th, 2013, 06:17 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heylouis View Post
any proof that the genetic differences can express on the facial appearance?
that's the very fundament of the discussion of facial differences.
in any wrong hands, the facial differences are useless points

wish you are not going to tell us that the purity of Hans can be seen from the face...........
typical counter example is that the so called Xianbei people were already part of the Hans years ago...
Even though there are no solid proofs that genetic differences can be expressed by facial appearance, but I do feel that the peoples with haplogroup C3 tend to look more like typical Mongoloid.

A few members on this forum have tried to connect Sinitic dynasties, such as the Shang and the Zhou, with northern Mongolic nomads. The point of my thread is to show them that the founding peoples of the Sinitic civilization looked like Southeast Asians. Hence, the ancient Chinese civilization should be considered as a southern civilization.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 06:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
Facial reconstruction of a proto-Mongolic Xianbei man who lived around 2000 years BP, based on a skull discovered in an ancient Xianbei tomb located at Dongdajing in Northeast China. Chinese archaeologists discovered 12 male skeletons in the Dongdajing tomb, and all of them belong to haplogroup C3*. This Donghu Xianbei man looked like typical North Asians.

Click the image to open in full size.
its interesting,when I watch this photo,first I think he is like a Russian.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 07:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
Even though there are no solid proofs that genetic differences can be expressed by facial appearance, but I do feel that the peoples with haplogroup C3 tend to look more like typical Mongoloid.

A few members on this forum have tried to connect Sinitic dynasties, such as the Shang and the Zhou, with northern Mongolic nomads. The point of my thread is to show them that the founding peoples of the Sinitic civilization looked like Southeast Asians. Hence, the ancient Chinese civilization should be considered as a southern civilization.
the core of Sinitic/Chinese is the culture, not the look nor the pronunciation.
when you made the face the "most strong" difference, you went into another mistake...
my logic is this: there were solid records that northern tribes intermarriage with proto-Hans, and part of their descendants finally joined the Han; the face reconstruction, they were built on the acient skull or current people? any skull not old enough would not tell us useful information how would the northern tribes influence the "Sinitic" face...
when you successfully make the Zhou and Shang not mongolic, you would unfortunately cannot explain the Tang and Song etc. are mongolic or Sinitic, because before these dynasties, (unlike Shang and Zhou), the proto-Hans were so influence by northern tribes, you cannot just ignore them.

as far as I know, from the face differece to tell different people is not very scientific, especially when we only have several pictures
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