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View Poll Results: Are the Pakistanis Indians?
Pakistanis are culturally Indian. 10 9.52%
Pakistanis aren't culturally Indian. 21 20.00%
Pakistanis are culturally and historically Indian. 59 56.19%
Pakistanis aren't culturally and historically Indian. 15 14.29%
Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:46 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
One of the many positive legacies of British colonialism was a unified India for the first time since ages,


Most probably Mughals had direct control of more Indian territory than the the British ever had. In 1947 in addition to the India, British gave freedom to more than 565 princely states (some of them were the creations of British themselves btw, for eg Princely state of Kashmir), Many of them were more than happy to go on their own way rather than joining the India. They were united in India by the "nationalist" politicians and not by the British. Infact on the eve of the freedom India was divided into more than 570 independent parts which historically never happened in the history of the continent "SINCE AGES".


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which, however, native nationalist politicians immediately screwed up by partitioning the country permanently
Ever heard of "Divide and Rule"? .IF you had "ANY" knowledge of Indian history you would have known that the seed of the partition were sown with the Partition of Bengal in 1905, when Lord Curzon decided to divide the Bengal on the religious line and not on the basis of administrative ease. Later on to counter the influence of national congress, the British Raj backed Muslim league (which was in some way the product of the partition of 1905) . not to mention the separate electorates for the Hindus and Muslims. Nationalist Politicians despite all their faults rather managed to salvage as much as possible from the mess created by the British.

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Are the Pakistanis still considered Indians or aren't they?
3rd option - Culturally and Historically Indian. Infact one can consider even NWFP and parts of Afghanistan as culturally and Historically part of India atleast upto 10th/11th century.

Last edited by Jinit; January 4th, 2014 at 12:58 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 01:12 AM   #12

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People need to realize a very simple fact. When historians use the term Indian, its a very specific phrase reserved for the cultures of the Indian Subcontinent and their descendants. India is a region, not a single nation, similar to the classification of Greek Culture or European Culture both of which are umbrella terms.

India in a lay context and a modern political context refer to the Republic of India, the modern nation, and is completely distinct from its neighbors Pakistan, Nepal, etc. Both of these regions, as well as regions such as Sikkim, etc qualify as Indian Cultures when spoken of historically, despite their various political affiliations and statuses today. Also while it is true that the Indians themselves never used the term Indian for themselves or other terms such as Hindu. However Indian Culture is now an accepted terminology because most foreigners associated the entire region with India, and thus its name became commonplace. If we started expecting that only Indigenous names for cultures be used and started hair-splitting by pointing out that there were cultural differences between north and south and that Hindu or India were not used by the natives to identify themselves, well then we might as well refuse to call the Egyptian Civilization Egyptian, the Persian Culture Persian, even the Greek Civilization would have to be renamed since the popular term was Hellene and Greek was used only by Aristotle and mostly by the Romans.

The problem is that people, sometimes deliberately, confuse the political terms and historical term. Just as Oxygen means breathable air in lay meaning, but O2 in Chemistry, India means means different (but related) things in modern politics, and in history.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 01:17 AM   #13

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Originally Posted by tornada View Post
People need to realize a very simple fact. When historians use the term Indian, its a very specific phrase reserved for the cultures of the Indian Subcontinent and their descendants. India is a region, not a single nation, similar to the classification of Greek Culture or European Culture both of which are umbrella terms.

India in a lay context and a modern political context refer to the Republic of India, the modern nation, and is completely distinct from its neighbors Pakistan, Nepal, etc. Both of these regions, as well as regions such as Sikkim, etc qualify as Indian Cultures when spoken of historically, despite their various political affiliations and statuses today. Also while it is true that the Indians themselves never used the term Indian for themselves or other terms such as Hindu. However Indian Culture is now an accepted terminology because most foreigners associated the entire region with India, and thus its name became commonplace. If we started expecting that only Indigenous names for cultures be used and started hair-splitting by pointing out that there were cultural differences between north and south and that Hindu or India were not used by the natives to identify themselves, well then we might as well refuse to call the Egyptian Civilization Egyptian, the Persian Culture Persian, even the Greek Civilization would have to be renamed since the popular term was Hellene and Greek was used only by Aristotle and mostly by the Romans.

The problem is that people, sometimes deliberately, confuse the political terms and historical term. Just as Oxygen means breathable air in lay meaning, but O2 in Chemistry, India means means different (but related) things in modern politics, and in history.
Good points...
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Old January 4th, 2014, 03:22 AM   #14

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No,Pakistan is India's brother ,their father is Mughal.You cannt claim your brother is you.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 03:30 AM   #15

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No,Pakistan is India's brother ,their father is Mughal.You cannt claim your brother is you.
their father would be the british, not the mughals. The Indus region usually marked the boundary of the region considered part of "India", with the Himalayas and the Hindu Kush to the North. The regions west of the Indus region was part of Afghanistan and the Middle East
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:08 AM   #16

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Originally Posted by tornada View Post
their father would be the british, not the mughals. The Indus region usually marked the boundary of the region considered part of "India", with the Himalayas and the Hindu Kush to the North. The regions west of the Indus region was part of Afghanistan and the Middle East
OK then Mughals become grandfather.Your Indus region explaination was used in British period,not now.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:15 AM   #17

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OK then Mughals become grandfather.Your Indus region explaination was used in British period,not now.
Please read my above posts. I was obviously referring to the Historical "India" not the modern Republic of India, the post 1947 nation.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:20 AM   #18

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Please read my above posts. I was obviously referring to the Historical "India" not the modern Republic of India, the post 1947 nation.
The topic :Are Pakistanis Indians?
This Pakistanis ,it's modern people,then the Indians here is mordern Indians too,not past India you mentioned.So they are deferent.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:27 AM   #19

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Originally Posted by anusername View Post
The topic :Are Pakistanis Indians?
This Pakistanis ,it's modern people,then the Indians here is mordern Indians too,not past India you mentioned.So they are deferent.
Did you not read the OP?
Quote:
Are the Pakistanis still considered Indians or aren't they?
One of the options in the poll is were they historically every Indian? Had this discussion been in the chamber or in current events, i would have phrased my points differently, having taken the assumption that from a non-historical perspective India refers to the Republic of India. However from the perspective of history (Asian History subforum) I naturally assumed that the initial reference must be to Historical India.

I was thus endeavoring to point out (as others were) that although Pakistanis are "Indians" from a historical perspective, they are not Indian from a Cultural perspective, as well as ofcourse a political and lay perspective in today's terminology.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:37 AM   #20

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Originally Posted by tornada View Post
Did you not read the OP?
.
Yes,I read,If Indians OF THE OP mean the Historical "India",then it's not a question.Why he asked so easy question?Of course they are from same British India.

What he asked aslo mean :
Are India Hindus and Pakistan MSL same people?

Are India Hindus and Pakistan MSL share same history?

The answer is NO.,No

Last edited by anusername; January 4th, 2014 at 04:40 AM.
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