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View Poll Results: Are the Pakistanis Indians?
Pakistanis are culturally Indian. 13 11.11%
Pakistanis aren't culturally Indian. 24 20.51%
Pakistanis are culturally and historically Indian. 63 53.85%
Pakistanis aren't culturally and historically Indian. 17 14.53%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #51

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Now British have became Anglo Saxon.
Well, the "Norman" Brits and the Celts and the Roman stay-behinds and the etc. etc. etc. Brits would beg to differ.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 04:42 AM   #52

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All states are artifical.
Hah, goodluck in explaining that to guys like him. Before you know it youl get a page long essay telling you how Pakistan is doomed for failure because it is artificial, how India is not artificial etc etc. Better to just ignore.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 04:45 AM   #53
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These offsprings from interethnic marriages who simply identify as "Pakistani" instead of the ethnic groups of their father or mother kind of remind me of the "Yugoslavs" who constituted in the last Yugoslavian census in Bosnia (1991) a substantial 5% of the population, IIRC.

Last edited by Aetius; January 5th, 2014 at 04:48 AM.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 04:55 AM   #54

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These offsprings from interethnic marriages who simply identify as "Pakistani" instead of the ethnic groups of their father or mother kind of remind me of the "Yugoslavs" who constituted in the last Yugoslavian census in Bosnia (1991) a substantial 5% of the population, IIRC.
Indeed it is a rising phenonmenon in the cities. In the past it was taboo to marry outside the tribe let alone the ethnic group but now in urban areas thats pretty much gone away. In rural areas it is still present however. I techincally belong to this urban "Pakistani" group as well. My maternal grandparents are Punjabi, but my paternal grandmother is from a Kashmiri family and my paternal grandfather is from a culturally Punjabi family but ethnically Hindkowan. We use the national language Urdu in our family now because further on I have cousins and siblings who have married Pashtuns and Muhajirs (people who came from India in 47). Its all very mixed up now.

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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:21 AM   #55
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To follow this strand further, I just looked up what became of the "Yugoslav" identity after the break-up of Yugoslavia: it simply evaporated from the record! Playing the devil's advocate, what could this tell about the actual vitality of the "Pakistani" self-designation. The Yugoslav experience indictates that such a national category isn't really deep-rooted, but dependent on the political framework.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:36 AM   #56

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To follow this strand further, I just looked up what became of the "Yugoslav" identity after the break-up of Yugoslavia: it simply evaporated from the record! Playing the devil's advocate, what could this tell about the actual vitality of the "Pakistani" self-designation. The Yugoslav experience indictates that such a national category isn't really deep-rooted, but dependent on the political framework.
Well the Bangladeshis today certainly do not identify with Pakistan. Certainly if Pakistan were divided into smaller nations the Pakistani identity would cease to exist. Though the Islamic identity of being unique and distinct from Afghanistan and indian muslims would however continue to exist
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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:42 AM   #57

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To follow this strand further, I just looked up what became of the "Yugoslav" identity after the break-up of Yugoslavia: it simply evaporated from the record! Playing the devil's advocate, what could this tell about the actual vitality of the "Pakistani" self-designation. The Yugoslav experience indictates that such a national category isn't really deep-rooted, but dependent on the political framework.
Well I dont have too much knowledge on Yugoslavia but from what I know Tito held that country together, and as soon as he died the ethnic and more importantly in the case of Bosnia the religious divides came out (Catholic vs Muslim vs Orhtodox). Pakistan isnt as reliant one one man. It could have been in a very different place today had Jinnah lived more than 1 years after the country came into existence, but even after Jinnah left Pakistan has had prime minsters and military dictators from all kinds of backgrounds. Ayub Khan was a Pashtun/Hindkowan, Yahya Khan was a Qazalbash Pashtun, Bhutto was Sindhi, Zia was Punjabi, Musharraf is Muhajir, Nawaz Sharif is from a Kashmiri family based in Punjab. I dont know how to compare it with Yugoslavia since as said I dont have much knoweldge of that place, but unlike so many postcolonial states where you have one ethnic group dominating others, that isnt really the case in Pakistan. Further after 71, Pakistan as a state makes quite much sense. As Anatol Leivin put it Pakistan "has a geographical unity which in some aspects is thousands of years old, being basically the valley of the river Indus plus neighbouring mountains, deserts and swamps. To a much greater extent than most postcolonial states, Pakistan therefore has a core geographical unity and logic. Moreover, most of Pakistans different ethnicities have lived alongside each other for millennia, have been Muslim for hundred of years, and have often been ruled by the same Muslim dynasties" Pakistan: A Hard Country.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:47 AM   #58

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Well the Bangladeshis today certainly do not identify with Pakistan. Certainly if Pakistan were divided into smaller nations the Pakistani identity would cease to exist. Though the Islamic identity of being unique and distinct from Afghanistan and indian muslims would however continue to exist
Well tbh there never was much mixing with Bangladeshis. They were too far away and too different from other Pakistanis and combined with the racist colonial mindset of our then leadership were not really considered "as Pakistani". Not a surprise then really that they dont identity with Pakistan. But with regards to the Pakistan of today, there is a lot of mixing going on, as is the case in India as well if i am not mistaken?
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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:59 AM   #59

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Well tbh there never was much mixing with Bangladeshis. They were too far away and too different from other Pakistanis and combined with the racist colonial mindset of our then leadership were not really considered "as Pakistani". Not a surprise then really that they dont identity with Pakistan. But with regards to the Pakistan of today, there is a lot of mixing going on, as is the case in India as well if i am not mistaken?
True and if India broke up, im sure the regional identity would become the dominant identifier
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Old January 5th, 2014, 10:21 AM   #60

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Hah, goodluck in explaining that to guys like him. Before you know it youl get a page long essay telling you how Pakistan is doomed for failure because it is artificial, how India is not artificial etc etc. Better to just ignore.
India is also an artificial state to a very large degree. Just look at the complete geopolitical and cultural anomaly which is India's Northeast. Here, you have a variety of Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burman groups which, historically, have had very little if any contact with Indic civilization. They are a part of the Republic of India simply because they too were ruled by the British.

You can't do much more than ignore, since I doubt that you are capable of viewing your "nation's" history from an objective angle. The fact is that Pakistan has no fundamental unity besides that of religion. And the theory of religious nationalism on which Pakistan is based was demolished in 1971 itself, when your own fellow Muslims broke away and created a separate nation-state (which unlike Pakistan, is much more of a natural state). Ethnic and linguistic identity is important even for members of the Ummah.

The only reason why Pakistan even exists today, is because of the interests of the world's major powers, especially the United States and China.

Last edited by civfanatic; January 5th, 2014 at 11:05 AM.
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