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Old June 3rd, 2014, 07:34 PM   #21

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To be more specific, one would suggest, the intra-Aryan rivalry between Indic Aryans and Iranic Aryans, sibling nations who had likely split from the same one ancient parent nation.
Exactly! Also there is a theory that a group of Aryans split from indo gangetic plains and settled with Iranic aryans during LAte vedic period. Because in early vedic times, Asuras are also praised along with Devas, whereas in later times they are demonized. Asura worshipping cult may have migrated to Iran. Added that this has nothing to do with controversial Out of India movement .
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Old June 4th, 2014, 06:54 AM   #22
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Old June 4th, 2014, 07:01 AM   #23

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Kindly explain... ??
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Old June 4th, 2014, 05:31 PM   #24

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He could quite easily pass muster for an Elamite ... or a Dravidian ...
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Old June 5th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #25

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To be honest from what people are saying here it is very hard to distinguish and differentiate Persian/Iranian civilization from Indian/Aryan civilization. They seem to be a continuous culture or at least very closely related. Some points that suggest that:
Closely related, perhaps. One culture, no.

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Language: Sanskrit and Avestan are very linguistically close, that one could say Avestan is a dialect of Sanskrit or vis versa
I do not think that Avestan could be considered to be a dialect of Sanskrit. One of them is a member of the Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-Iranian languages and the other is from the Iranian branch. But closely related, sure.

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Geography: Ancient India and ancient Persia seems to overlap into one another. Parts of the Eastern frontier of Persia overlap with the most Western frontier of the Maurayan empire. And Kamboja and Ghandara are considered great Indian kingdoms
The boundary IIRC was usually the Indus river. The Achaemenids pushed past the river slightly into Punjab, but overall I haven't encountered anything about overlapping with the Maurya empire. The Maurya empire came about after the fall of the Achaemenids anyway, by their time it was the Seleucids who ruled Iran. The Maurya established a border with the Seleucids after defeating them in a war in around 305 B.C.E.

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Religion: Vedic religion and Zoroastrianism, same gods, same rituals
Zoroastrianism only has one God, Ahura Mazda. Vedic religion, the precursor to Hinduism obviously has many. The two religions are not related at all.

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Ethnicity: Ethnicites that consider to be Indian overlap with Persian ethnicity such as the Raputs, Gujjuars and Punjabis/Sindhis. They both consider themselves Aryan.
I suppose this isn't too far off. They do speak fairly similar languages in North India/Pakistan as in Iran.

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Cultural values: The Persians were renowned for being secular, promoting freedom of thought and expression and they valued truth the highest virtue, similar values to Indian values, especially speaking truth(satya)
Renowned for being secular? I suppose you are referring to their policy of not persecuting other religions. This was not a rare thing to do. Most conquerors followed this trend. Even the brutal Mongols did. Freedom of thought and expression though? That seems like stretching the truth a bit to me...

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Army: Persian army had Indian soldiers and possibly Indian elephants in it.
The Achaemenids also employed Scythians and Greeks, doesn't make them Scythian or Greek
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Old June 6th, 2014, 07:09 AM   #26
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I do not think that Avestan could be considered to be a dialect of Sanskrit. One of them is a member of the Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-Iranian languages and the other is from the Iranian branch. But closely related, sure.
I am not sure, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Avestan the closest IE language to Sanskrit?

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The boundary IIRC was usually the Indus river. The Achaemenids pushed past the river slightly into Punjab, but overall I haven't encountered anything about overlapping with the Maurya empire. The Maurya empire came about after the fall of the Achaemenids anyway, by their time it was the Seleucids who ruled Iran. The Maurya established a border with the Seleucids after defeating them in a war in around 305 B.C.E.
I was saying that Afghanistan and parts of Iran are considered part of India, the great Mahajanapradas and historically they have been a part of India and sometime not a part of India. They also seem to the first Indian kingdoms that were attacked by the Persians or were ceded to the Persians.

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Zoroastrianism only has one God, Ahura Mazda. Vedic religion, the precursor to Hinduism obviously has many. The two religions are not related at all.
It is a myth that the Vedic religion is polytheistic, there are just as many verses in the Vedas that say God is one, such as "God is one, one without a second, without a third, without a fourth" or "God/truth is one, but the sages call it by different names, Indra, Aryman, etc" Hinduism is not really a polytheistic religion, but what is called henotheistic, that is it believes in one god or one supreme truth and reality, and all other gods are energies, powers or manifestations of that.

It is false to say Vedic religion and Zoroastriniam are not related. They have similar scriptures(Veda and Avesta) they have similar gods(Mitra-Varuna etc) and they have similar rituals fire-sacrifices.

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Renowned for being secular? I suppose you are referring to their policy of not persecuting other religions. This was not a rare thing to do. Most conquerors followed this trend. Even the brutal Mongols did. Freedom of thought and expression though? That seems like stretching the truth a bit to me...
No, it is well attested fact, even by Greeks that the Persians were known for speaking the truth and being just and honest. Cyrus was apparently a great and benevolent king, whatever region he conquered, he allowed the people to continue to practice their customs and religions. He also paid his slaves a fair wage. These values are very similar to Indian values, the value of "truth" or satya is one of the core moral codes of Indian society.

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The Achaemenids also employed Scythians and Greeks, doesn't make them Scythian or Greek
Sure. I guess what is significant that when the Persians fought with the Greeks, they had a significant contingent of Indian soldiers fighting for them.
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Old June 6th, 2014, 07:54 AM   #27

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I am not sure, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Avestan the closest IE language to Sanskrit?



I was saying that Afghanistan and parts of Iran are considered part of India, the great Mahajanapradas and historically they have been a part of India and sometime not a part of India. They also seem to the first Indian kingdoms that were attacked by the Persians or were ceded to the Persians.



It is a myth that the Vedic religion is polytheistic, there are just as many verses in the Vedas that say God is one, such as "God is one, one without a second, without a third, without a fourth" or "God/truth is one, but the sages call it by different names, Indra, Aryman, etc" Hinduism is not really a polytheistic religion, but what is called henotheistic, that is it believes in one god or one supreme truth and reality, and all other gods are energies, powers or manifestations of that.

It is false to say Vedic religion and Zoroastriniam are not related. They have similar scriptures(Veda and Avesta) they have similar gods(Mitra-Varuna etc) and they have similar rituals fire-sacrifices.



No, it is well attested fact, even by Greeks that the Persians were known for speaking the truth and being just and honest. Cyrus was apparently a great and benevolent king, whatever region he conquered, he allowed the people to continue to practice their customs and religions. He also paid his slaves a fair wage. These values are very similar to Indian values, the value of "truth" or satya is one of the core moral codes of Indian society.



Sure. I guess what is significant that when the Persians fought with the Greeks, they had a significant contingent of Indian soldiers fighting for them.
Not significant. The indian presence in Persian armies against the Greeks was never significant, which is why the Greeks knew so little of them. Scythians, Mardians and such like were significant. It is disputed if the Greeks ever fought any indian contingent prior to Alexander
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Old June 9th, 2014, 02:28 AM   #28

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Which parts of India did Persia occupy and when?
.
I don't know alot about your other question but I know this

in Karnal war in 1739 , king Nader Afshar fought to India because he didn't deliver 800 afghans that attacked to Iran . My teacher said Iran won the war because Nader make fire and elephants went to Indian army
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Old June 9th, 2014, 08:43 PM   #29

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I don't know alot about your other question but I know this

in Karnal war in 1739 , king Nader Afshar fought to India because he didn't deliver 800 afghans that attacked to Iran . My teacher said Iran won the war because Nader make fire and elephants went to Indian army
I think Joshua is aiming at the Indian provinces under the Achaemenid rule.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 10:07 AM   #30
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To be honest from what people are saying here it is very hard to distinguish and differentiate Persian/Iranian civilization from Indian/Aryan civilization. They seem to be a continuous culture or at least very closely related.
Not a continuous culture, they were distinct civilizations. Their borders wouldn't have been any more blurry than that between any other two neighboring ethnic groups. But they were indeed closely related.

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Language: Sanskrit and Avestan are very linguistically close, that one could say Avestan is a dialect of Sanskrit or vis versa
This is the biggest similarity indeed, but I'm not sure if they could be considered dialects of one language. They were remarkably similar though.

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Geography: Ancient India and ancient Persia seems to overlap into one another. Parts of the Eastern frontier of Persia overlap with the most Western frontier of the Maurayan empire. And Kamboja and Ghandara are considered great Indian kingdoms
Gandhara is Indian whereas Kamboja is Iranian. These are clear cut definitions and I don't see the overlap here.

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Religion: Vedic religion and Zoroastrianism, same gods, same rituals
Similar for sure, but I don't know if they're similar enough to be considered part of a larger overlapping religion. After all, the Vedas and Puranas have no place in Ancient Iran.

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Ethnicity: Ethnicites that consider to be Indian overlap with Persian ethnicity such as the Raputs, Gujjuars and Punjabis/Sindhis. They both consider themselves Aryan.
These aren't overlapping. They are all Indian. By the way, Punjabi and Sindhi are not ethnicities but regional identities like 'New Yorker' or 'Palestinian'.

Aryan was the word for all Indo-Aryans and Iranians.

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Cultural values: The Persians were renowned for being secular, promoting freedom of thought and expression and they valued truth the highest virtue, similar values to Indian values, especially speaking truth(satya)
These are largely universal, not something that should be mentioned IMO.

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Army: Persian army had Indian soldiers and possibly Indian elephants in it.
This again seems to be reaching a bit. All countries would have had some folk neighboring countries in their armies. I would be very surprised if the Persian army had no Semites.

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There does seem to be a very ancient sibling like rivalry between "India" and "Persia" as evident from the split between Vedic religion and Zoroastrianism. In Zoroastrianism the devas become demons and the asuras become gods, in Vedic religion/Hinduism the total opposite.
That's true, I wonder around what period the role reversal of those deities happened.

Anyways, I think that historically East Iranians would have had a lot of association with Indians whereas West Iranians would have had more of an association with Semites and other West Asians, even going back to the ancient era. This trend still exists today to a degree. But of course the East Iranians and West Iranians would both be closer to each other than either of them would be to Semites or Indics.

Last edited by Dzmeka; January 1st, 2018 at 10:09 AM.
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