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Old August 14th, 2014, 01:07 PM   #11

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Maybe Kambojas are Iranic but there is no evidence of any eastern Iranian language used in writing in Pashtunistan and North Pakistan, why is that if entire region was Iranic? Place names like Kandahar, Nangarhar , Kabul , Peshawar all show that once Indo Aryans were dominant in these areas.
We have evidence that Yusufjai invaded Swat which is another IA placename as late as 16th century and so it is perfectly possible that modern day Pashtunistan was not 100 percent Pashtun in pre Islamic times. Please note I am not saying that Iranics were not present only that they did not form 100 percent of population and both IA and Iranics lived in this region together.
there are many evidences for bactrian,scythian(saka) and some other iranian languages in this region.And it seems that they were dominant in northern,western and southern afghanistan during the rule of the kushans but it is correct that in eastern afghanistan and northern pakistan indo-aryan and nuristani languages were important for a long time.But iranian languages were also spoken therre.The iranians migrated later than indo-aryans and nuristani people to afghanistan but they came in several waves(early iranians,saka,hepthalites,kamboj) to afghanistan and displaced most non-iranian languages.But many old indo-aryan toponyms and hydronyms were preserved

Pashtunistan was never 100% pashtun and even today ormuri(another eastern iranian language),farsi and dardic languages are spoken
there.

The kambojas and Asvakas were probably a mix of iranians and some iranized people.

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Old August 14th, 2014, 01:33 PM   #12

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The best term to describe them is Indo-Iranian. They lived in a transition zone between cultures and as such would have had influences from both sides ethnically, linguistically, culturally etc. I am a Kamboh/Kamboj myself and we are supposedly descendants of those Kambojas who settled down in N. Punjab + Hazara region. Culturally we are totally Indic (Punjabi/Hindko) now of course. Other tribes in the wider region like the Koms of Nuristan are also said to have Kamboja ancestry.

On a side note were the Shahis of Kabul also Kamboj? My uncle who is into history a lot said they were but I myself have only looked into it briefly and could not find anything.

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Old August 14th, 2014, 03:45 PM   #13
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the kambojas were most likely of iranian origin because they were considered as mlecchas by indo-aryans and they were associated with the Sakas.But they were also heavily indo-aryanized and adopted indian customs


Read the OP carefully mate,i have said that early figures like Panini and Kautilya considered Kambojas as a Janapada following Kshatriya constitution.I have also written about an early Vedic grammarian named Kamboja Aupamanyava who lived prior to Yaska(800-700 BCE).So Kambojas were strictly associated with the Vedic people.But in the classical Sanskrit texts,we find them mentioned along with the mlecchas.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 03:49 PM   #14
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The best term to describe them is Indo-Iranian. They lived in a transition zone between cultures and as such would have had influences from both sides ethnically, linguistically, culturally etc.
They lived in the Indo-Iranian zone,but i think they were culturally Indic.AFAIK we don't find mention of Kambojas in any of the Iranian texts......



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I am a Kamboh/Kamboj myself
So we have a warrior descendant here
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Old August 14th, 2014, 03:57 PM   #15

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Read the OP carefully mate,i have said that early figures like Panini and Kautilya considered Kambojas as a Janapada following Kshatriya constitution.I have also written about an early Vedic grammarian named Kamboja Aupamanyava who lived prior to Yaska(800-700 BCE).So Kambojas were strictly associated with the Vedic people.But in the classical Sanskrit texts,we find them mentioned along with the mlecchas.
no they were described as "degenerated" mlecchas who ignored the vedic traditions.This must not mean that they were iranian,they could also be nuristani or archaic indo-aryans but they were skilled horsemen with a nomadic tradition and with zoroastrian customs which was only typical for iranian people during this time so they were most likely iranians or iranized people

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Bhuridatta Jataka refers to the Kambojas as following the non-Aryan (i.e. Zoroastrian) customs like killing poisonous insects, moths, snakes and worms—which [54] is recognized as Zoroastrian from passages in Mazdean books like the Vedevat [55] and from the remarks of Herodotus.[56]
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Old August 14th, 2014, 04:01 PM   #16
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no they were described as "degenerated" mlecchas who ignored the vedic traditions.This must not mean that they were iranian,they could also be nuristani or archaic indo-aryans but they were skilled horsemen with a nomadic tradition and with zoroastrian customs which was only typical for iranian people during this time so they were most likely iranians or iranized people
Possibly,they were Iranianized in the later times.In the early times,they were strictly related to the Indic zone,because Yaska(who lived during 800-700 BCE) quotes a Kamboja grammarian and sage who lived prior to him.

I'm still looking a reference to the Kambojas from Iranic texts.I couldn't find any.Only the Iranian kings Cambyses I & II held the title Kambujiya.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 04:12 PM   #17

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Possibly,they were Iranianized in the later times.In the early times,they were strictly related to the Indic zone,because Yaska(who lived during 800-700 BCE) quotes a Kamboja grammarian and sage who lived prior to him.

I'm still looking a reference to the Kambojas from Iranic texts.I couldn't find any.Only the Iranian kings Cambyses I & II held the title Kambujiya.
ancient iranian literauture is quite poor and i doubt that you will find much.


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Ptolemy refers to a region located on the southern bank of Oxus in Badakshan or Bactria,[124] and calls it Tambyzoi. According to scholars like Dr S Levi, Tambyzoi is a Greek transliteration of Sanskrit Kamboja [125]

Ptolemy also refers to another people/region which he calls Ambautai [126] which he locates on the southern side of Hindukush in the Paropamisadae.[127]

Ptolemy refers yet to another people/region he calls Komoi, whom he locates in the mountains of Sogdiana north of Bactria/Badakshan. It has been suggested that the Komoi of Ptolemy also indicate the same people as the Kambojas of the Sanskrit texts. The Komoi is Ptolemian transtliteration of Kamboi. Kamboi comes from Kamboika or Kamboyka which is corruption of Kambojika.[128] Kambojika is Pali equivalent of Sanskrit Kamboja. Pali texts numerously write Kamboja as well as Kambojaka/Kambojika. Scholars like Dr H. C. Seth observe: "The mountainous highlands where Jaxartes and many other rivers which meet this great river arise, are called by Ptolemy as "the Highlands of Komdei". Ammianus Marcellinus also call these Sogdian mountains as Komedas. The word Komedai and Komedas suggest Kom-desa or land of Kome. We learn from Ptolemy that a tribe variously called by him as Komaroi, Komedai, Khomaroi and Komoi was wide spread in the Highlands of Bactriana and Sogdiana. It is difficult to say, at present, how far the vast tracts of land on either side of Oxus called as Kyzyl Kum or Kizil Kum, Kok-kum and Kara Kum may yet bear the traces of the name of this once a great and powerful people".[129] These scholars have placed the ancient Kambojas in a vast area, in the doab of Oxus and Jaxartes, in the southern tip of Sakadvipa or Scythia. The Komdei of Ptolemy or the Kumudadvipa of the Puranic texts, obviously represents the Parama Kambojas [130] of the Mahabharata.[131]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboja...ian_literature
It seems that kamboja were originally nomadic tribes from northern central asia who later settled in afghanistan and india.We find also some hydronyms and toponyms related to kamboja in trans-caucasian regions and we know that scythian often invaded this regions so we can link kambojas with the scythians.But it very likely that kamboja were soon indo-aryanized when they settled in eastern afghanistan and india.So we can describe them as "indo-iranians"

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Old August 14th, 2014, 04:28 PM   #18
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ancient iranian literauture is quite poor and i doubt that you will find much.

This is true,unfortunately.



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It seems that kamboja were originally nomadic tribes from northern central asia who later settled in afghanistan and india.We find also some hydronyms and toponyms related to kamboja in trans-caucasian regions and we know that scythian often invaded this regions so we can link kambojas with the scythians.But it very likely that kamboja were soon indo-aryanized when they settled in eastern afghanistan and india
If Yaska who lived during 700 BCE mentions the Kambojas,it would be too early for Sakas since Sakas only came to India during 2nd cent BCE.....

Besides,Sakas were pure mlecchas from the beginning onwards,unlike the Kambojas.They were reputed Vedic teachers and grammarians(like in the case of Kamboja Aupamanyava).
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Old August 14th, 2014, 04:41 PM   #19

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This is true,unfortunately.





If Yaska who lived during 700 BCE mentions the Kambojas,it would be too early for Sakas since Sakas only came to India during 2nd cent BCE.....

Besides,Sakas were pure mlecchas from the beginning onwards,unlike the Kambojas.They were reputed Vedic teachers and grammarians(like in the case of Kamboja Aupamanyava).
Iranian tribes invaded afghanistan already in vedic times and later they also migrated to india
iranians came in many different waves to afghanistan and india so we can assume that most of their migrations were unreported.Saka is a term for various nomadic iranian tribe who probably had never a common identity.Kambojas were also mlecchas and they were never accepted as brahmins.The lands of kambojas were considered as unpure and evil by most indo-aryan brahmins.But it seems that kamboja were like other invaders assimlated in the Kshatriya caste

I think that before kamboja and other iranian tribes migrated to northern pakistan and eastern afghanistan,this region were dominated by indo-aryans and considered as "pure" lands by indo-aryans but the kamboja changed the local culture and rituals of the inhabitants which still had an vedic culture.The kamboja had iranian rituals and gods which were similar to indian but still different.Because of that indo-aryans considered kamboja as mleccha and gandhara was not more “ pure“.

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Old August 14th, 2014, 04:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Viraspa View Post
Iranian tribes invaded afghanistan already in vedic times and later they also migrated to india
None of the vast corpus of Vedic texts mention this.


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.Kambojas were also mlecchas and they were never accepted as brahmins.
Not true.They were associated with the Vasishta gotra of Brahmins(one of the greatest Vedic sage was Vasishta).Read on this link:Brahmanism of Ancient Kambojas | KambojSociety.com

Further,Vamsha Brahmana(an early text belonging to the ritualistic era) mentions a Vedic sage named Kamboja Aupamanyava,which indicates that Kambojas were among the Vedic people.You can read it on the same link.None of the early Indian texts associates Kambojas with Iranians.Possibly,they were Iranianized later during Buddhist times.
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