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Old August 14th, 2014, 05:13 PM   #21

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None of the vast corpus of Vedic texts mention this.




Not true.They were associated with the Vasishta gotra of Brahmins(one of the greatest Vedic sage was Vasishta).Read on this link:Brahmanism of Ancient Kambojas | KambojSociety.com

Further,Vamsha Brahmana(an early text belonging to the ritualistic era) mentions a Vedic sage named Kamboja Aupamanyava,which indicates that Kambojas were among the Vedic people.You can read it on the same link.None of the early Indian texts associates Kambojas with Iranians.Possibly,they were Iranianized later during Buddhist times.
northern and western Afghanistan were invaded by iranians in vedic times.Only eastern and southern Afghanistan was part of vedic civilisation.It is very likely that the vedic people had already contact with some iranians and assimilated some of them.Early vedic people had not such strict concepts of caste and ritual purity and it was easier for an non-indo-aryan iranian to be accepted as brahmin,when he adopted vedic rituals and language


Later eastern iranians adopted buddhism and iranian people often had indian gods.Even the sakas were worshippers of shiva-rudra and they had indian names.Indian culture and religions were quite attractive for the eastern iranian tribes in gandhara.And most of the iranian elites were indo-aryanized

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Old August 14th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #22
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Early vedic people had not such strict concepts of caste and ritual purity and it was easier for an non-indo-aryan iranian to be accepted as brahmin,when he adopted vedic rituals and language
Not entirely true.Rig Vedic people did have orthodoxy,and termed non Vedic people as Dasyus or Dasas.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #23

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Not entirely true.Rig Vedic people did have orthodoxy,and termed non Vedic people as Dasyus or Dasas.
Yes but not so radical and strict like in the ritualistic era.At the beginning there was not great differences between indian and iranian religion but later iranians and indians developed their own distinct rituals.Iranians abandoned the deva gods and indians considered the asuras later as evil.So it can be that early iranians were considered as aryans by indo-aryans but later they were only consideres as mleccha
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Old August 14th, 2014, 11:37 PM   #24
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.So it can be that early iranians were considered as aryans by indo-aryans but later they were only consideres as mleccha
RV hardly mentions Iranians.Rig Vedic geography ends with Gandhara or modern Swat.Some names of tribes like Parsu,Paktha etc are associated with Iranics like Pashtuns and Persians by certain scholars,but these terms are quite ambiguous.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 01:16 AM   #25
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Yaska dates probably around 500 to 350 BC and Panini comes not long after maybe 400 to 300 BC.

700 BC too early for Yaska.

Iranians are hardly mentioned at all in RV and that too in one or two doubtful verses.

Dasas and Dasyu were clearly prevedic locals. Although only single description as dark.

Kambojas probably Iranian tribes of east from about 350 BC. I think Panini mentions both Yavanas and Kambojas. So 330 BC sounds best fit.

Post that only Budhism spread in Ashokan times.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 02:26 AM   #26
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas

Pretty good write up here.

In view of their brilliant horsemanship and their time period i.e. Assekenoi of Alexander and subsequently well known to Mauryans they could be the tribesmen who later became the Parthians who were brilliant horseback fighters
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Old August 15th, 2014, 02:41 AM   #27

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RV hardly mentions Iranians.Rig Vedic geography ends with Gandhara or modern Swat.Some names of tribes like Parsu,Paktha etc are associated with Iranics like Pashtuns and Persians by certain scholars,but these terms are quite ambiguous.
yes the rig veda is a religious text and not a history book so it is not easy reconstruct historical events with it.I think that the vedic tribes had contact with some iranians but it is unclear what to a relationship they had .Rigveda geography ends with the kabul river in the west and we know that early iranians
settled already near kabul and in west,south and north afghanistan.The avesta mentions also punjab(Hapta Həndu ) as an aryan district created by Ahura Mazda.So some early iranians lived not far away from punjab.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 02:45 AM   #28

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They lived in the Indo-Iranian zone,but i think they were culturally Indic.AFAIK we don't find mention of Kambojas in any of the Iranian texts......
Although their association with the Indic world is strong no doubt but they also show Iranic influences. For example there are references in the Pali text according to G.K Nariman of Kambojas practising the killing of snakes and other poisinous insects (a Zoroastrian practice). (https://journals.cambridge.org/actio...tyETOCSession=)

"Kita Patanga Uraga ca Bheka
Bantva Kimim Sujjhati Makkhika ca,
Ete hi dhamma anariyarupa
Kambojakanam vithatha bahunnan"

Those men are counted pure who only kill
Frogs, worms, bees, snakes or insects as they will
Those are your savage customs which I hate
Such as Kamboja hordes might emulate (vol vi, 110)


Also their degradement from Kshatriya to Mleecha was probably due to foreign/iranic influences (e.g. there being only the Arya and Dasa rather than the caste system). I think the safe bet then is to call them Indo-Iranian.

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So we have a warrior descendant here
We arent very warriorish today though im afaird. We delegated that task to Gujjars and Jats
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Old August 15th, 2014, 06:33 AM   #29
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Although their association with the Indic world is strong no doubt but they also show Iranic influences. For example there are references in the Pali text according to G.K Nariman of Kambojas practising the killing of snakes and other poisinous insects (a Zoroastrian practice). (https://journals.cambridge.org/actio...tyETOCSession=)

"Kita Patanga Uraga ca Bheka
Bantva Kimim Sujjhati Makkhika ca,
Ete hi dhamma anariyarupa
Kambojakanam vithatha bahunnan"

Those men are counted pure who only kill
Frogs, worms, bees, snakes or insects as they will
Those are your savage customs which I hate
Such as Kamboja hordes might emulate (vol vi, 110)


Also their degradement from Kshatriya to Mleecha was probably due to foreign/iranic influences (e.g. there being only the Arya and Dasa rather than the caste system). I think the safe bet then is to call them Indo-Iranian.
I think this verse is apparently from a Jataka.Jatakas are much later texts compared to early Buddhist suttas.Probably by the time of the Jatakas,the Kambojas were thoroughly Iraninized.



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We arent very warriorish today though im afaird. We delegated that task to Gujjars and Jats
hehe
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Old August 15th, 2014, 07:44 AM   #30

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I think this verse is apparently from a Jataka.Jatakas are much later texts compared to early Buddhist suttas.Probably by the time of the Jatakas,the Kambojas were thoroughly Iraninized.
Yes its from a Jataka, however even from the earlier days scholars have noted iranic influences on the Kambojas. Barbara A West for example states "the original religion of the Kamboja, Mazdaism point to their Indo-Iranian roots" (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p...amboja&f=false). On top of that the Parama Kambojas (kin of the Kambojas) are said to have lived further north and would undoubtedly have been more Iranic (AFAIK the Mahabharata only talks about the excellent steeds and handsome faces of these Kambojas, not about whether they were vedic or not).
Of course because this is so far back in history there is probably no way of knowing which answer is right. However given that the Kambojas live in the transition zone that is Northern Pakistan, they would most definitely have had significant influences from both sides I feel.

Azadi Mubarek btw

Last edited by Shaheen; August 15th, 2014 at 08:23 AM.
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