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Old August 15th, 2014, 05:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Shaheen View Post
Yes its from a Jataka, however even from the earlier days scholars have noted iranic influences on the Kambojas. Barbara A West for example states "the original religion of the Kamboja, Mazdaism point to their Indo-Iranian roots" (Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania - Barbara A. West - Google Books). On top of that the Parama Kambojas (kin of the Kambojas) are said to have lived further north and would undoubtedly have been more Iranic (AFAIK the Mahabharata only talks about the excellent steeds and handsome faces of these Kambojas, not about whether they were vedic or not).
Of course because this is so far back in history there is probably no way of knowing which answer is right. However given that the Kambojas live in the transition zone that is Northern Pakistan, they would most definitely have had significant influences from both sides I feel.
I cant view that book(it says i have reached the view limits even though i'm viewing it for the first time lol).
Anyway,yes,i agree with you.There might have been influences from both sides.However,there is no much source to indicate that Kambojas were Zoroastrians.As i said earlier,none of the Iranian sources mentions the Kambojas.Also the mention Parama Kambojas only occur in the Mahabharata,which as you may know mentions many other tribes like Sakas who came to south Asia only during 2nd cent BCE.So i think by the time of MhBh,the Kambojas were already alienated by the Vedic writers.

And not only Mhbh,but Buddhist and Jain sources also speaks of the excellent Kambojan horses.They are also associated with the Ashvakas.

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Azadi Mubarek btw
Same to you mate
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Old August 15th, 2014, 07:30 PM   #32

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Originally Posted by Viraspa View Post
we have not many iranian books and indians wrote much more.Most iranian books were lost and indians could better preserve this historical documents.Ancient iranian literature was probably never so rich like indian and was only about religion or political propaganda

But it is possible that kamboja were a confederation of iranian,indo-aryan and nuristani tribes.I can not exclude that and i know that there exists today a nuristani tribe called kam/kom/kamboj
it said that Cambodia (from Kampuchea). is derived from kamboja. another interesting fact is that the Khmer Kampuchea kingdom in ancient times was recorded as "khom" as well. the mon states to the west of the Khmer kingdom referred to Cambodia as "khom", possibly a simplified version of Cambodia-kompujia.

even to this day, khom is use. Khmer martial arts is called "yuthakun khom". in sahk yant tattoo that is done in Thailand, the Thai's would rather called Khmer script "khom script" instead of just calling it Khmer script.

I always wondered the Khmer connection to the word komboja. as we called our country "srok Khmer" or "khemarahk".

after conquering and unifying many Khmer kingdoms. king jayavarman II proclaim his new kingdom as kompujia. I have speculated as a "god king" and well versed in the teachings of the brahman and Buddhists traditions that existed in Cambodia at this time, jayavarman II could possibly take names from the brahman-buddhist text for his kingdom. it was common in ancient Cambodia for rulers to use Sanskrit terms for their city states as well as having local Khmer names. there's a very good chance jayavarman II did the same and got kampujia from kamboja that is recorded in the Vedic text. as komboja is mentioned in the brahman-buddhist traditions.

it could be just coincidence that kampujia use by the Khmer sound similar to kamboja. but for now i personally think it's something to do with king jayavarman II using a name from the brahman-buddhist text for his kingdom.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 09:35 PM   #33
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Although their association with the Indic world is strong no doubt but they also show Iranic influences. For example there are references in the Pali text according to G.K Nariman of Kambojas practising the killing of snakes and other poisinous insects (a Zoroastrian practice). (https://journals.cambridge.org/actio...tyETOCSession=)

"Kita Patanga Uraga ca Bheka
Bantva Kimim Sujjhati Makkhika ca,
Ete hi dhamma anariyarupa
Kambojakanam vithatha bahunnan"

Those men are counted pure who only kill
Frogs, worms, bees, snakes or insects as they will
Those are your savage customs which I hate
Such as Kamboja hordes might emulate (vol vi, 110)


Also their degradement from Kshatriya to Mleecha was probably due to foreign/iranic influences (e.g. there being only the Arya and Dasa rather than the caste system). I think the safe bet then is to call them Indo-Iranian.



We arent very warriorish today though im afaird. We delegated that task to Gujjars and Jats
Whole book is not coming.

But the suggestion that they were the Nuristani is interesting i.e. the Nuristani people are the remnants of this ancient language, rest of them becoming Indian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaheen View Post
Yes its from a Jataka, however even from the earlier days scholars have noted iranic influences on the Kambojas. Barbara A West for example states "the original religion of the Kamboja, Mazdaism point to their Indo-Iranian roots" (Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania - Barbara A. West - Google Books). On top of that the Parama Kambojas (kin of the Kambojas) are said to have lived further north and would undoubtedly have been more Iranic (AFAIK the Mahabharata only talks about the excellent steeds and handsome faces of these Kambojas, not about whether they were vedic or not).
Of course because this is so far back in history there is probably no way of knowing which answer is right. However given that the Kambojas live in the transition zone that is Northern Pakistan, they would most definitely have had significant influences from both sides I feel.

Azadi Mubarek btw
Could they have been the Indo Parthians and the Parthians respectively?

During the peak Mauryan rule, whole of Iran and Turkmenistan was under the big Parthian empire. It would be strange of two such major empires did not write about each other and yet this seems to be so.

Partians came up to the Indus only after the decline of the Mauryan empire and after that the decline of the Indo PArthian kingdom as well, when the SUngas were ruling i.e. PArthians came up tp PAkistan in about 1AD or so.

Indo-Parthian Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indo-Scythians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
from which below extract

There are reasons to believe that Sai Scythians were Kamboja Scythians and therefore Sai-Wang belonged to the Scythianised Kambojas (i.e. Parama-Kambojas) of the Transoxiana region and came back to settle among his own stock after being evicted from his ancestral land located in Scythia or Shakadvipa. King Moga or Maues could have belonged to this group of Scythians who had migrated from the Sai country (Central Asia) to Chipin.[39] The Mathura Lion Capital inscriptions attest that the members of the family of King Moga had last name Kamuia or Kamuio (q.v.) which Khroshthi term has been identified by scholars with Sanskrit Kamboja or Kambojaka. Thus, Sai-Wang and his migrant hordes which came to settle in Kabol valley in Kapisha may indeed have been from the transoxian Parama Kambojas living in Shakadvipa or Scythian land.[40]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajra View Post
I cant view that book(it says i have reached the view limits even though i'm viewing it for the first time lol).
Anyway,yes,i agree with you.There might have been influences from both sides.However,there is no much source to indicate that Kambojas were Zoroastrians.As i said earlier,none of the Iranian sources mentions the Kambojas.Also the mention Parama Kambojas only occur in the Mahabharata,which as you may know mentions many other tribes like Sakas who came to south Asia only during 2nd cent BCE.So i think by the time of MhBh,the Kambojas were already alienated by the Vedic writers.

And not only Mhbh,but Buddhist and Jain sources also speaks of the excellent Kambojan horses.They are also associated with the Ashvakas.



Same to you mate
They may not have been Zoroastrian, just Indo Iranic language speakers. Kushans were Zoroastrian. Not sure about the Scythians and PArthians in India - I think they basically became Kshatriyas only.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 11:41 PM   #34

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They may not have been Zoroastrian, just Indo Iranic language speakers. Kushans were Zoroastrian. Not sure about the Scythians and PArthians in India - I think they basically became Kshatriyas only.
interestingly zoroastrianism like we know it today never existed in central asia.The kushan and other iranians or iranized people were polytheists and had many iranian(zoroastrian and pre-zoroastrian),indian and some pre-indoeuropean gods(nana).We can rather assume that the kushan had a religion based on pre-zoroastrian traditions.Today the term zoroastrian is inflationary used and probably not reflects the complecated religious traditions in central asia.


Quote:
Could they have been the Indo Parthians and the Parthians respectively?

During the peak Mauryan rule, whole of Iran and Turkmenistan was under the big Parthian empire. It would be strange of two such major empires did not write about each other and yet this seems to be so.

Partians came up to the Indus only after the decline of the Mauryan empire and after that the decline of the Indo PArthian kingdom as well, when the SUngas were ruling i.e. PArthians came up tp PAkistan in about 1AD or so.
i personally dont think that the parthians are the same like the kamboja people.They have many similarities but parthians came very late in this region and parthians spoke a language which was never in spoken in afghanistan or Gandhara.Parthians not settled so much in Gandhara or afghanistan.The kamboja were rather like you already said Sakas
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