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Old October 5th, 2014, 09:14 PM   #101

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The key evidence is that removing the suffixes Khel and Zay produces Indian clan and caste-names as shown by Bellew more than a century ago. In the intervening century, more clan names have disappeared, more radicalization has set in and there is an even greater lack of knowledge of origins and further reluctance to accept them. I am only reproducing a small section.

From Henry Walter Bellew, Ethnography of Afghanistan:

The above remarks of the erudite scholar and eminent archaeologist (Cunningham) just quoted are of great value, as confirming the existence of an Indian population in Eastern Afghanistan down to the first third of the eleventh century of our era. And I may here state in anticipation, that, although the idolaters wore driven out of their idolatry, and with them the Indian element disappeared in the brotherhood of Islam, an Indian people, both in their tribal names and traditional customs, as well as in the languages they speak, still exist in the satrapies assigned to the Indians by PLINY. In the course of our inquiry we shall see Indians appearing everywhere in Eastern Afghanistan and often by the names of great Rajput tribes of renown in the history of India.

The Lohani, as above shown, is a. great tribe, and is largely engaged in the caravan trade between India and Central Asia, under the name Povindah; of which mercantile association they form one of the principal clans ; the other Povindah clans being the Nyuzi, the Nasur, and the Kharot. 'These Povindah clans arc entirely devoted to the caravan trade. In summer they leave their families in tents, called giz/u/i, or kizluli, or khtzhdi, in the Punah, Nawnr, etc., districts of Ghuzni, with a guard of their old men, whilst the bulk of the younger men disperse with their merchandise, mostly carried on camels, to Samal'lmnci, Bukhara., Tashkand, Kashghar, Yarkand, etc. In winter they leave their families in tents at the foot of the hills, or Daman, of the Derajat portion of the Indus valley, whilst the men spread over India, driving their caravans to the principal cities and trading marts clown to Calcutta, Bombay, Hydrabad, etc. Of the long list of sections above given, nearly the whole number is composed of Rajput and Hindu tribes and clans, principally of the trading and mercantile classes. The over-name Lohani is the Lawani Chohan Agnikula Rajput. Balli is a Kachwaha clan, Bhilxl is Paramara, Agnikula Rajput. Chandar is the Olunula Chohan, poi is a Rajput tribe. Hani is the Hana Brahman. Jalo is the July Rajput, Loni is an Indian tribe from the banks of the Luni river of RiLjwitrra. Moill is Mohil Rajpllt. Mil11U1, Mamrez, and Mundo are Brahman clans of Northern India. Mena is aboriginal Indian of Minval. hiarw[ 1 t is kriit Indian. Paliar may stand for Pariluua, or for Piiji (Parmara), both Agnikula Rajput. Patakh is Ptilakll, Indian herdsman clan. Sagra is Prarnara Rajput, SiLli)'rand Samal are the Bdll'w and Simala Rajput. Sanati and Sandal' are the Oalwdh!J(1 and Sasulal Brahman. Sanr may be the SI'd Brahman, or Sulunri Khatri. Sen is Sehgal Rajput.

The NyAzl division of Lodi, as suggested by Tod (" Annals of Rajasthan "), is derived from the Hindi f. jaldd, or "New comer." The term appears to have been applied to Indian inhabitants of Afghanistan, converts to Islam in the time of Shahubuddin Ghori. 'The NYazi, it is said, emigrated ]argely to Hindustan during the reigns of SULTAN BAHLOL LODI and SHImSHAH Sum, under whose Governments they enjoyed lucrative offices about the royal court, and various important administrative charges. There are now few of the clan left in Afghanistan, where they form one of the four principal clans of the Povindah caravan merchants. Their summer quarters are in the high plateau on the west of the Sulemau range, and their winter on its eastern side in the Daman of tho Indus valley.


The Ethnography of Afghanistan by HW Bellew is available online free for downloading. Those interested in South Asian history please download a copy for yourselves. You will be learn a lot. A lot of the newly uncovered PG Data, etc. will begin to make more sense as well as medieval history. Following the logic laid out by Bellew, President of Afghanistan Ashraf Ghani might be of Brahmin descent.
this article has no information and evidences and it is quite weire written.Ghani is of nomadic kuchi origin so he is even more likely of turkish origin than brahmin.Many pashtuns are still nomadic and this nomadic lifestyle is not typical for the indian subcontinent.Pashtuns were nomads and their customs were already common among Saka,Hepthalites or Kushan.Pashtuns are culturally even more similar to turks than to indians.The Durrani pashtuns are also called Abdali and this name is identical to Hepthalite.Also Afghanistan and his people were considered as mleccha by brahmins because they were not of indo-aryan origin.Please show me one evidence for an indian origin of any pashtun tribe.Pashto even has almost no indian loanwords and pashtun clothes,human phenotypes and even cuisine is very different from indian clothes,human phenotypes and cuisine.Pashtuns have often dardic origin and even today many pashai are assimilated by pashtuns but dardic people were different from other indo-aryans and were not brahmins or rajputs

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Old October 5th, 2014, 09:30 PM   #102

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Where do you think Indians got said "Rape Culture" from ? Ancient Pre-Islamic Indians were extremely liberal, women were not covered up in Pataliputra, Ujjain or Taxila - in fact they wore more jewellery than clothing. May I remind you that the Kama Sutra originated in India ?

BTW, Pashtuns were not the only recipents of all forms of brutality although they experienced it the most due to their being at the confluence of multiple Psychopathic Chieftains (Ghaznavids, Mongols, etc). Indians and Pakistanis experienced it with North India more than South India obviously. Even though India is Hindu and has retained a large part of its ancient culture and religion, aspects of the ideology of Islam have penetrated deeply into the Indian psyche as well.
honestly ancient indo-aryan people were much more misogynist than most ancient iranic and even altaic people.I would even say that pashtun women had before Taliban more rights and a more important role than indian women in rural areas.In most indian religions and cultures women are considered as inferior to men and nobody protected them.Also indians speak today only indo-aryan language because of the invasion of indo-aryan from the north who probably also forced many women into marriage like every invader did or do you think that the indo-aryan invaders had not such a "rape" culture?

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Old October 5th, 2014, 09:40 PM   #103

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this article has no information and evidences and it is quite weire written.Ghani is of nomadic kuchi origin so he is even more likely of turkish origin than brahmin.Many pashtuns are still nomadic and this nomadic lifestyle is not typical for the indian subcontinent.Pashtuns were nomads and their customs were already common among Saka,Hepthalites or Kushan.Pashtuns are culturally even more similar to turks than to indians.The Durrani pashtuns are also called Abdali and this name is identical to Hepthalite.Also Afghanistan and his people were considered as mleccha by brahmins because they were not of indo-aryan origin.Please show me one evidence for an indian origin of any pashtun tribe
Go look up the Maldharis, who are Hindu nomadic herdsmen in Gujarat, but now getting accustomed to a more settled lifestyle.

Phenotypes often lie. Clan names are important and let me tell you why. 100 years from now, Kashmiris can show their high Europoid phenotypes, their different religion and claim they were never part of S. Asia or Indian civilization. But even those ignorant of Panini and Kalhana know that Kashmiris were Aryan Hindus of the Dardic branch because everybody still remembers that the name "Butt" is the Islamicized Brahmin "Bhat" in converted Kashmiri Pandits. Prominent Kashmiri Pandits in Pakistan try to cover up their name Butt for this reason e.g. Sheikh Rashid of PML-Q (which is quite messed up but thats a different topic).
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Old October 5th, 2014, 09:54 PM   #104

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honestly ancient indo-aryan people were much more misogynist than most ancient iranic and even altaic people.I would even say that pashtun women had before Taliban more rights and a more important role than indian women in rural areas.In most indian religions and cultures women are considered as inferior to men and nobody protected them.Also indians speak today only indo-aryan language because of the invasion of indo-aryan from the north who probably also forced many women into marriage like every invader did or do you think that the indo-aryan invaders had not such a "rape" culture?
Please do not embarass yourself. There is no evidence of an Aryan Invasion. There are only those that believe in Aryan Migration Theory (AMT) and Out-of-India theory (OIT). There is no archaeological evidence for any type of violent displacement or conquest of indigenous peoples. PG data show no sharp change in haplotypes as is the case for J1 in West Asia (in Arabic Speakers coinciding with Islamic expansion).

The glorious progressiveness of ancient Hinduism is too well documented. For women, India had the practice of "Swayamvara" which means "I choose whom to wed" in Sanskrit. India never demanded women to be covered up and hide their feminity. Ancient Indian women wore more jewellery than clothing. The Kama Sutra originated in India (written in Sanskrit by Vatsyayana)

I am going to quote from Stephen Knapp now:

There were also women rishis who revealed the Vedic knowledge to others. For example, the 126th hymn of the first book of the Rig-Veda was revealed by a Vedic woman whose name was Romasha; the 179 hymn of the same book was by Lopamudra, another inspired Vedic woman. There are a dozen names of women revealers of the Vedic wisdom, such as Visvavara, Shashvati, Gargi, Maitreyi, Apala, Ghosha, and Aditi who instructed Indra, one of the Devas, in the higher knowledge of Brahman.

Manu Smriti: Women must be honored and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands, and brothers‑in‑law, who desire their own welfare. Where women are honored, there the gods are pleased; but where they are not honored, no sacred rite yields rewards. Where the female relations live in grief, the family soon wholly perishes; but that family where they are not unhappy ever prospers. The houses on which female relations, not being duly honored, pronounce a curse, perish completely, as if destroyed by magic. Hence men who seek (their own) welfare, should always honor women on holidays and festivals with (gifts of) ornaments, clothes and (dainty) food.

Bhishma in Mahabharata to Yudhisthira: O ruler of the earth (Yuddhisthira) the lineage in which daughters and the daughters-in-law are saddened by ill treatment, that lineage is destroyed. When out of their grief these women curse these households, such households lose their charm, prosperity and happiness

Atharva Veda: O bride! May the knowledge of the Vedas be in front of you and behind you, in your centre and in your ends. May you conduct your life after attaining the knowledge of the Vedas. May you be benevolent, the harbinger of good fortune and health, and live in great dignity and indeed be illumined in your husband's home

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Old October 5th, 2014, 10:06 PM   #105
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honestly ancient indo-aryan people were much more misogynist than most ancient iranic and even altaic people.I would even say that pashtun women had before Taliban more rights and a more important role than indian women in rural areas.In most indian religions and cultures women are considered as inferior to men and nobody protected them.Also indians speak today only indo-aryan language because of the invasion of indo-aryan from the north who probably also forced many women into marriage like every invader did or do you think that the indo-aryan invaders had not such a "rape" culture?
You do not know anything but any debate is useless here. Some people with recent bloody past and even ongoing wars feel comfortable hallucinating about "rapes" of bronze ages.Fact of the matter is that women have always been considered inferior to men in any complex culture- all matriarchal cultures were primitive. We have immense information on pre modern Indian society and I can say conclusively that women of non high castes were as free as they are today. High caste women had some restriction on mixing with males but this is true even today and is true for elites of any society in pre modern times.basically, it is just feminazism 's impact which leads people to accuse each other of misogynism, a Pashtun certainly loves his sister, daughter and respects his mother and this is true for all people in world so no one is misogynist per se. What really happens is that non westernised societies are not following concept of equality.

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Old October 5th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #106
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The entire discussion shows how useless things like genetics are- If I raise a Hindu temple in Kabul and Mazdarya or Viraspa are lords of Kabul, I may succeed. If some Talibani controls Kabul, I will be killed. Viraspa and Talibanis are of same race and genes, yet so different outcome, this is why it is common religions and languages which are important rather than tracing y dna of stone ages.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 11:26 PM   #107
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Please do not embarass yourself. There is no evidence of an Aryan Invasion. There are only those that believe in Aryan Migration Theory (AMT) and Out-of-India theory (OIT). There is no archaeological evidence for any type of violent displacement or conquest of indigenous peoples. PG data show no sharp change in haplotypes as is the case for J1 in West Asia (in Arabic Speakers coinciding with Islamic expansion).

The glorious progressiveness of ancient Hinduism is too well documented. For women, India had the practice of "Swayamvara" which means "I choose whom to wed" in Sanskrit. India never demanded women to be covered up and hide their feminity. Ancient Indian women wore more jewellery than clothing. The Kama Sutra originated in India (written in Sanskrit by Vatsyayana)

I am going to quote from Stephen Knapp now:

There were also women rishis who revealed the Vedic knowledge to others. For example, the 126th hymn of the first book of the Rig-Veda was revealed by a Vedic woman whose name was Romasha; the 179 hymn of the same book was by Lopamudra, another inspired Vedic woman. There are a dozen names of women revealers of the Vedic wisdom, such as Visvavara, Shashvati, Gargi, Maitreyi, Apala, Ghosha, and Aditi who instructed Indra, one of the Devas, in the higher knowledge of Brahman.

Manu Smriti: Women must be honored and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands, and brothers‑in‑law, who desire their own welfare. Where women are honored, there the gods are pleased; but where they are not honored, no sacred rite yields rewards. Where the female relations live in grief, the family soon wholly perishes; but that family where they are not unhappy ever prospers. The houses on which female relations, not being duly honored, pronounce a curse, perish completely, as if destroyed by magic. Hence men who seek (their own) welfare, should always honor women on holidays and festivals with (gifts of) ornaments, clothes and (dainty) food.

Bhishma in Mahabharata to Yudhisthira: O ruler of the earth (Yuddhisthira) the lineage in which daughters and the daughters-in-law are saddened by ill treatment, that lineage is destroyed. When out of their grief these women curse these households, such households lose their charm, prosperity and happiness

Atharva Veda: O bride! May the knowledge of the Vedas be in front of you and behind you, in your centre and in your ends. May you conduct your life after attaining the knowledge of the Vedas. May you be benevolent, the harbinger of good fortune and health, and live in great dignity and indeed be illumined in your husband's home
Women have been subordinate to men in all cultures including modern day west, like it or not but ancient India was even more patriarchal than modern day India. Life of an upper caste women was like this

She is born, loved and cared by her parents, parents find a suitable boy after she comes of age, boy is of same caste but of different gotra. The girl is taught that her husband is her everything, husband has authority but he loves her, she gives birth to childs and is respected as mother by them, she does not have that right as any male in any secular affairs and in case of death of her husband, she is required to lead a very hard life with no ornaments and colored clothes.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 11:29 PM   #108

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Women have been subordinate to men in all cultures including modern day west, like it or not but ancient India was even more patriarchal than modern day India. Life of an upper caste women was like this

She is born, loved and cared by her parents, parents find a suitable boy after she comes of age, boy is of same caste but of different gotra. The girl is taught that her husband is her everything, husband has authority but he loves her, she gives birth to childs and is respected as mother by them, she does not have that right as any male in any secular affairs and in case of death of her husband, she is required to lead a very hard life with no ornaments and colored clothes.
Fewer Assertions, More Sources.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 11:33 PM   #109
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Having said this, we all can agree that despite family's honor being dependent upon conduct of female in most of Indic societies including Punjabi Muslims, it is fact that women of Pakistan appear to be freer than those of Afghanistan and saudi arabia. Is it just coincidence that both Pakistan and BD have had Muslim women occupying top positions and even today they have millions of followers?
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Old October 5th, 2014, 11:41 PM   #110
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Fewer Assertions, More Sources.
Read Arthasastra, Ramayana( swayamvara had a different meaning there), Harshacharita, Mahabharata, any of Puranas and even manusmriti which is selectively quoted by both sides.
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