Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 30th, 2014, 12:09 PM   #41

Azad67's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2014
From: pakistan
Posts: 818

Sikh, Pathan and Gurkha soldiers in the eyes of Winston S. Churchill
Azad67 is offline  
Remove Ads
Old September 30th, 2014, 12:10 PM   #42

Azad67's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2014
From: pakistan
Posts: 818

Tughlaq dynasty and Afghans
Azad67 is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 12:12 PM   #43

Azad67's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2014
From: pakistan
Posts: 818

Lawrence of Arabia in Waziristan

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Azad67; September 30th, 2014 at 12:14 PM.
Azad67 is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 12:18 PM   #44

Azad67's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2014
From: pakistan
Posts: 818

Ahmad Shah Durrani against Qing China
Azad67 is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 02:14 PM   #45
Lecturer
 
Joined: Aug 2013
From: Germany
Posts: 298

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azad67 View Post
Kuchis are ghilzais/ghaljis, this article would be helpful
Khiljis
The questions here is:" Are Ghilzai Pashtuns related to the Khiljis? The Khiljis were most likely a Turkic tribe, there is no doubt about that.

Pashtun history is really confusing and mysterious for me. Ancient historians like Herodotus mentioned the Pakthas a warrior-like people who were located South-eastern Afghanistan and northern parts of modern Pakistan in the 1st millenium B.C. I asume that these people were the eponymous ancestors of an Eastern-Iranian speaking people today.

How did Pashtuns became the biggest ethnicity in Afghanistan and the second-largest in Pakistan? I think their golden age begann with the Lodi dynasty

The most interesting thing is that the second-largest Pashtun tribal confederacy, the Ghilzais are probably originally of Turkic origin.

Last edited by Temple of time; September 30th, 2014 at 02:41 PM.
Temple of time is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 08:33 PM   #46

sonofstars's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2014
From: Canada
Posts: 1,009

The Pakhtuns are an ancient Indo-Aryan peoples, who are even attested to, in the oldest part of that most ancient of literary sources: The Rig Veda

The Battle of Ten Kings

6 Eager for spoil was Turvasa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
The Bhrgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.
7 Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.
Yet to the Trtsus came the Arya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.
8 Fools, in their folly fain to waste her waters, they parted inexhaustible Parusni.
Lord of the Earth, he with his might repressed them: still lay the herd and the affrighted herdsman.
9 As to their goal they sped to their destruetion: they sought Parusni; e'en the swift returned not.
Indra abandoned, to Sudas the manly, the swiftly flying foes, unmanly babblers.
10 They went like kine unherded from the pasture, each clinging to a friend as chance directed. They who drive spotted steeds, sent down by Prsni, gave ear, the Warriors and the harnessed horses.
11 The King who scattered one-and-twenty people of both Vaikarna tribes through lust of glory As the skilled priest clips grass within the chamber,so hath the Hero Indra, wrought their downfall.
sonofstars is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #47

sonofstars's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2014
From: Canada
Posts: 1,009

Despite (of because of) their ancient origins, the Pakhtuns have been traumatized by repeated brutal invasions in a region that is that has been at the cross-roads of empires, and have adopted the culture, names and customs of their invaders in a sociological equivalent of Stockholm's Syndrome.

Any even slightly knowledgeable person can see the immense influence of the Mongols on Pashtun culture but are the Pashtuns related to the Mongols ? Not at all, say all the recent evidence, some in fields we cannot discuss. In the 13th and 14th centuries, the Golden Horde subjugated the Pashtuns in Bactria, Arachosia and Sogdiana. A couple of centuries later, the Indianized Pasthuns (Pathans) suffered a massive loss again, this time to the Persianized Mongols (Mughals).

From http://afghanmirror.tripod.com/id8.html:

" One of the major words borrowed by the Pashtuns from the Mongols is the word "Khan." Khan is a Mongolian title that originally meant commander, leader or ruler. Khan also means a leader of a tribe now, giving the word connotations of honor. Though the title is very common all over Central Asia, it is the Pashtuns who use it more than anyone else. They even use it twice in their names i.e. Khan Abdul Ghafar Khan. If it weren't for this title, the Pashtuns wouldn't know how to label their own leaders. And there are plenty of other terms and words.

Many of the Pashtun tribes are derived from Mongolian names and terms. "Zadran" and "Zazai" are Pashtun tribes in Paktia, Paktika, and Khost. Their roots are from "Jadarin" and "Jaji" two Mongolian terms. "Zadran" and "Zazai" are also known by non Pashtuns in Afghanistan as "Jadran" and "Jaji". Jadarin is the name of the clan that Changiz Khan was from. Jaji was the name of Changiz's grandfather and he was the leader of the Jadarin clan. In the Mogolian language "Jaji" means "foreigner" so the Zazai's are basically calling themselves foreigners. "Khil" means "clan" in the Mongolian language, a term very much familiar with the Pashtuns. "Orya" is the name of one of Changiz's grandson and "Oryakhil" is a name of a Pashtun tribe. "Zay" means "son" in the Mongolian language. The very-similar Pashto word "Zoy" also means "son." The Pashto words "Zai" and "Khil" signifies groups in Pashto and they were obviously taken by the Mongolian words mentioned earlier—"khil" and "zay." A few other words that are copied or "borrowed" are the Mongolian words "Wolos" which means "people," "Jerga" which means "council," and "Shahghalay" which means "mister." Changiz's first wife, Borte Ujin, came from the Karot tribe and "Kharot" is the name of a Pashto tribe. This is obviously not a mistake or a coincidence. The Pashtuns basically "borrowed" or stole these name and applied them to themselves, illustrated just how obsessed they were with the Mongols.

Karo was the title of a spiritual man in the clan of Changiz Khan's first wife. And now, Karokhil is the name of a Pashto tribe. Also, another major source of pride for Pashtuns is the Mangal tribe from Paktia, Khost, and Paktika. I have seen many Pashtuns proudly proclaim themselves as mighty and proud Mangals. Interestingly enough the Mongols called themselves "Mangals." "Mongol" itself is an English word and "Mangal" is the Mongolian term just like "Mughul" is the Farsi word for Mongols. For example, Americans call the people of Germany as "Germans" but the Germans call themselves "Deutsch." There is also an island in Mongolia called Talkun which has two rivers that run through it. The names of the rivers are Selenge and Orgon. Changiz Khan's clan was based right next to the Orgon River. Now, in Paktika, there is a place called Urgun.

These were just some of the major terms and names that the Pashtuns took from the Mongols. I know that not a lot—if hardly anyone—is aware of the origins of some of the Pashto names and terms but they were obviously taken from the Mongols, a group of people that the Pashtuns have spent years making fun of. This exemplifies just how little claim the Pashtuns have over their own culture and names—what makes them think they can have any legitimate claim over anything else like the land? At the most, the Hazaras and others with similar features just share an outward appearance of the Mongols which is shared by probably one-third of the world. The Pashtuns' resemblance to the Mongols goes deeper than just features. They have mentally and historically copied the Mongols in acts of savagery and barbarisms. Whereas the Mongols committed horrific acts in the 13th Century, the Pashtuns have and are committing horrific act to the present day in the form of Abdali, Abdul Rahman , the Taliban, and political oppression. Another thing the 13th Century Mongols and the present-day Pashtuns have in common is the fact that they both had tribal systems. The 13th Century Mongols were all different tribes which Changiz Khan united them all and became the Khan over them. Modern-day Mongolia is no longer tribal but the Pashtuns still hold unto their tribal system to this day—just like Changiz Khan's people. For more on the Pashtun tribal system please refer to the article titled "Baba-ocracy."
sonofstars is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 10:20 PM   #48

Viraspa's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Former Corded Ware
Posts: 1,240

Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of time View Post
The questions here is:" Are Ghilzai Pashtuns related to the Khiljis? The Khiljis were most likely a Turkic tribe, there is no doubt about that.

Pashtun history is really confusing and mysterious for me. Ancient historians like Herodotus mentioned the Pakthas a warrior-like people who were located South-eastern Afghanistan and northern parts of modern Pakistan in the 1st millenium B.C. I asume that these people were the eponymous ancestors of an Eastern-Iranian speaking people today.

How did Pashtuns became the biggest ethnicity in Afghanistan and the second-largest in Pakistan? I think their golden age begann with the Lodi dynasty

The most interesting thing is that the second-largest Pashtun tribal confederacy, the Ghilzais are probably originally of Turkic origin.
The name Ghilzai sounds similar to the Turkish Khalaj but it is very unlikely that modern Ghilzai are direct descendants of Turkish tribes.The Turkish Khalaj in India and Afghanistan were described as pseudo-Turks and the "real" Turks considered them as foreigners.They were called Afghans and it seems that they were rather hunnified/turkified Hepthalites/Sakas.Many nomadic Iranic tribes were turkified and adopted Turkish names and culture.Modern Ghilzai look not different from other pashtuns and have almost the same dna.But pashtuns were influenced by Turkish people and adopted some words from them.
Viraspa is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 10:29 PM   #49

Viraspa's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Former Corded Ware
Posts: 1,240

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofstars View Post
The Pakhtuns are an ancient Indo-Aryan peoples, who are even attested to, in the oldest part of that most ancient of literary sources: The Rig Veda

The Battle of Ten Kings

6 Eager for spoil was Turvasa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
The Bhrgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.
7 Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.
Yet to the Trtsus came the Arya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.
8 Fools, in their folly fain to waste her waters, they parted inexhaustible Parusni.
Lord of the Earth, he with his might repressed them: still lay the herd and the affrighted herdsman.
9 As to their goal they sped to their destruetion: they sought Parusni; e'en the swift returned not.
Indra abandoned, to Sudas the manly, the swiftly flying foes, unmanly babblers.
10 They went like kine unherded from the pasture, each clinging to a friend as chance directed. They who drive spotted steeds, sent down by Prsni, gave ear, the Warriors and the harnessed horses.
11 The King who scattered one-and-twenty people of both Vaikarna tribes through lust of glory As the skilled priest clips grass within the chamber,so hath the Hero Indra, wrought their downfall.
I don't understand why so many south asians think that pashtuns are Indians and believe they are from india.Pashtuns speak a east iranic language related to pamiri languages and scythian languages.Also they were often nomads and almost nobody in India had a pastoral nomadic lifestyle.Pashtuns don't look south asian and are easy to distinguish from Indians and indo-aryan pakistanis.Genetically pashtuns are also quite different from Indians and are close related to pamiri and dardic people.Also the pakhtas mentioned in Rigveda are not called indians and we get no information about their origin and culture from Rigveda.

Last edited by Viraspa; September 30th, 2014 at 10:31 PM.
Viraspa is offline  
Old September 30th, 2014, 10:34 PM   #50

Viraspa's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Former Corded Ware
Posts: 1,240

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofstars View Post
Despite (of because of) their ancient origins, the Pakhtuns have been traumatized by repeated brutal invasions in a region that is that has been at the cross-roads of empires, and have adopted the culture, names and customs of their invaders in a sociological equivalent of Stockholm's Syndrome.

Any even slightly knowledgeable person can see the immense influence of the Mongols on Pashtun culture but are the Pashtuns related to the Mongols ? Not at all, say all the recent evidence, some in fields we cannot discuss. In the 13th and 14th centuries, the Golden Horde subjugated the Pashtuns in Bactria, Arachosia and Sogdiana. A couple of centuries later, the Indianized Pasthuns (Pathans) suffered a massive loss again, this time to the Persianized Mongols (Mughals).

From http://afghanmirror.tripod.com/id8.html:

" One of the major words borrowed by the Pashtuns from the Mongols is the word "Khan." Khan is a Mongolian title that originally meant commander, leader or ruler. Khan also means a leader of a tribe now, giving the word connotations of honor. Though the title is very common all over Central Asia, it is the Pashtuns who use it more than anyone else. They even use it twice in their names i.e. Khan Abdul Ghafar Khan. If it weren't for this title, the Pashtuns wouldn't know how to label their own leaders. And there are plenty of other terms and words.

Many of the Pashtun tribes are derived from Mongolian names and terms. "Zadran" and "Zazai" are Pashtun tribes in Paktia, Paktika, and Khost. Their roots are from "Jadarin" and "Jaji" two Mongolian terms. "Zadran" and "Zazai" are also known by non Pashtuns in Afghanistan as "Jadran" and "Jaji". Jadarin is the name of the clan that Changiz Khan was from. Jaji was the name of Changiz's grandfather and he was the leader of the Jadarin clan. In the Mogolian language "Jaji" means "foreigner" so the Zazai's are basically calling themselves foreigners. "Khil" means "clan" in the Mongolian language, a term very much familiar with the Pashtuns. "Orya" is the name of one of Changiz's grandson and "Oryakhil" is a name of a Pashtun tribe. "Zay" means "son" in the Mongolian language. The very-similar Pashto word "Zoy" also means "son." The Pashto words "Zai" and "Khil" signifies groups in Pashto and they were obviously taken by the Mongolian words mentioned earlier—"khil" and "zay." A few other words that are copied or "borrowed" are the Mongolian words "Wolos" which means "people," "Jerga" which means "council," and "Shahghalay" which means "mister." Changiz's first wife, Borte Ujin, came from the Karot tribe and "Kharot" is the name of a Pashto tribe. This is obviously not a mistake or a coincidence. The Pashtuns basically "borrowed" or stole these name and applied them to themselves, illustrated just how obsessed they were with the Mongols.

Karo was the title of a spiritual man in the clan of Changiz Khan's first wife. And now, Karokhil is the name of a Pashto tribe. Also, another major source of pride for Pashtuns is the Mangal tribe from Paktia, Khost, and Paktika. I have seen many Pashtuns proudly proclaim themselves as mighty and proud Mangals. Interestingly enough the Mongols called themselves "Mangals." "Mongol" itself is an English word and "Mangal" is the Mongolian term just like "Mughul" is the Farsi word for Mongols. For example, Americans call the people of Germany as "Germans" but the Germans call themselves "Deutsch." There is also an island in Mongolia called Talkun which has two rivers that run through it. The names of the rivers are Selenge and Orgon. Changiz Khan's clan was based right next to the Orgon River. Now, in Paktika, there is a place called Urgun.

These were just some of the major terms and names that the Pashtuns took from the Mongols. I know that not a lot—if hardly anyone—is aware of the origins of some of the Pashto names and terms but they were obviously taken from the Mongols, a group of people that the Pashtuns have spent years making fun of. This exemplifies just how little claim the Pashtuns have over their own culture and names—what makes them think they can have any legitimate claim over anything else like the land? At the most, the Hazaras and others with similar features just share an outward appearance of the Mongols which is shared by probably one-third of the world. The Pashtuns' resemblance to the Mongols goes deeper than just features. They have mentally and historically copied the Mongols in acts of savagery and barbarisms. Whereas the Mongols committed horrific acts in the 13th Century, the Pashtuns have and are committing horrific act to the present day in the form of Abdali, Abdul Rahman , the Taliban, and political oppression. Another thing the 13th Century Mongols and the present-day Pashtuns have in common is the fact that they both had tribal systems. The 13th Century Mongols were all different tribes which Changiz Khan united them all and became the Khan over them. Modern-day Mongolia is no longer tribal but the Pashtuns still hold unto their tribal system to this day—just like Changiz Khan's people. For more on the Pashtun tribal system please refer to the article titled "Baba-ocracy."
This article is just racist and has no valuable information.Pashtuns fought against the Mongols in many battles and even defeated them in Parwan.
Viraspa is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
afghan, afghans, pakhtun, pakhtuns, pashtun, pathans



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
how were afghans and pashtuns converted to islam mangatd Asian History 21 April 6th, 2018 08:56 PM
Light skinned Afghans? Nick Asian History 24 July 28th, 2016 01:18 PM
Lost Israelite tribes found: Afghans? M.S. Islam Ancient History 54 April 18th, 2013 01:37 PM
How did the Afghans win against the Soviets? Satuf Middle Eastern and African History 48 May 20th, 2012 01:06 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.