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Old December 1st, 2014, 05:47 AM   #1461
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Originally Posted by litsol View Post
Moderator : Can you make a point and add to guidelines for the discussions that those who enter into a debate on contents of scriptures, should have basic ability of reading the content written in the language, not knowing the language gives rise to funny tales against the fact.

Hope you shall co-operate.

Good Day !
Rig Veda is written in Sanskrit, as many other Hindu scriptures, which is not understood by majority of people even from the Republic of India. I think you are asking for an impossibility. Please have a re-think. Thank you.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 06:35 AM   #1462
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@listol, I have posted numerous excerpts from different people who argued about different theories regarding where river Saraswati was located, which also included those who believe that Saraswati is a celestial river and a Milky Way between the earth and Netherland. I personally believe that Saraswati was an eastern river located within the Ganges river valley. This is also substantiated by mention of Ganga, Jamuna, Saraswati as a separate group of rivers at various places in Rig Veda, in addition to other many other facts that I quoted with references.

And this is what I was arguing about. Please don't get annoyed as I learn from your counter arguments as I also learn from the counter arguments presented by others as well. It has been scientifically proven that Ghaggar-Hakra was not Saraswati and that the IVC sites located beside Ghaggar-Hakra were not dependent on the river for their sustenance, which was indicated to be a small river or stream during those days. Therefore, Indus Valley Civilisation was not Saraswati Civilisation.

Cheers.
Your problem that annoys us, is that you don't remember who says what and then you don't respond to questions on your abilities, you copy matters from other's blog or books those who are not participating, now what to do with their views, their views are of no importance to me at least and to others also as we are able to check all the references and can understand errors in conclusions drawn by those non participating people and when you start loosing ground, you start making those non participating people hero in your defense.

Now, you are quoting from Rajesh Kochar, around 50% of the references to Rigvedic Mantras that he provided in his blog are incorrect, those specific words are not there in mantras referred to by him, but in other mantras, this shows, how he writes and what he knows.

Earlier, I had silenced him on the matter of History of Vedic Astrology, He also doesn't understand Sanskrit and keeps drifting freely, so if you copy from his writings, what support or justification you derive, this all doesn't work,

Briefly, this is what I said here in this thread -

1. Look at my initial post, I said that the research for proving Ghaghar Hakra was the Vedic Saraswati is not yet conclusive, enough has been done however, hundreds of minor issues raised needs to be addressed, resolved, incorporated or rejected.

2. By saying above, there is no confusion that Saraswati was a river flowing in India ( Harayana), the Vedic description doesn't give opportunity for one to have confusion, further, it's said that mighty roaring Saraswati meets the ocean and a ruler ruling along the flowing Saraswati whose name is Chitra is found in Rigveda and in other scriptures. further the mention of "Panch Jana" the word that has given current Pun-jab it's name, supports that once, Saraswati was flowing, Punjab and Hariyana got split very recently, earlier there was one greater Punjab, so, no confusions.

3. In India, since the Vedic Age, there has been deep respect to water and water sources, not only Saraswati but all significant rivers are respected as mother and goddess wherever you go in India, so, these epithets doesn't make ground to make Saraswati mythical. Arguments on these terms simply shows ignorance on Figures of Speech ( Alankaara ) in Sanskrit and lack of insight into unbroken tradition.

Then it's a full stop.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 08:45 AM   #1463
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Originally Posted by litsol View Post
Your problem that annoys us, is that you don't remember who says what and then you don't respond to questions on your abilities, you copy matters from other's blog or books those who are not participating, now what to do with their views, their views are of no importance to me at least and to others also as we are able to check all the references and can understand errors in conclusions drawn by those non participating people and when you start loosing ground, you start making those non participating people hero in your defense.

Now, you are quoting from Rajesh Kochar, around 50% of the references to Rigvedic Mantras that he provided in his blog are incorrect, those specific words are not there in mantras referred to by him, but in other mantras, this shows, how he writes and what he knows.

Earlier, I had silenced him on the matter of History of Vedic Astrology, He also doesn't understand Sanskrit and keeps drifting freely, so if you copy from his writings, what support or justification you derive, this all doesn't work,

Briefly, this is what I said here in this thread -

1. Look at my initial post, I said that the research for proving Ghaghar Hakra was the Vedic Saraswati is not yet conclusive, enough has been done however, hundreds of minor issues raised needs to be addressed, resolved, incorporated or rejected.

2. By saying above, there is no confusion that Saraswati was a river flowing in India ( Harayana), the Vedic description doesn't give opportunity for one to have confusion, further, it's said that mighty roaring Saraswati meets the ocean and a ruler ruling along the flowing Saraswati whose name is Chitra is found in Rigveda and in other scriptures. further the mention of "Panch Jana" the word that has given current Pun-jab it's name, supports that once, Saraswati was flowing, Punjab and Hariyana got split very recently, earlier there was one greater Punjab, so, no confusions.

3. In India, since the Vedic Age, there has been deep respect to water and water sources, not only Saraswati but all significant rivers are respected as mother and goddess wherever you go in India, so, these epithets doesn't make ground to make Saraswati mythical. Arguments on these terms simply shows ignorance on Figures of Speech ( Alankaara ) in Sanskrit and lack of insight into unbroken tradition.

Then it's a full stop.
First of all, could you please tell me, who is "us", that you are talking about and I am guilty of annoying them.

Secondly, when I express even my personal opinion, posters here ask me to qualify my opinion or statement with references from experts. That is also one of the reasons I post links and references, in addition to the quotes from other authors that I additionally post for supporting my argument.

And then, you get annoyed with some of the authors I refer to, like Rajesh Kochar, Romila Thapar and others from Republic of India you do not agree with. Also Witzel and others from western countries etc, with whom you have disagreement of views. I also don't agree with some of the things they state and I agree with some of their expressed opinion. That's your opinion and I have mine. Like you have the liberty to have an opinion, I also reserve the right to have my own opinion. What's wrong with that.

I feel that Ghaggar-Hakra is not mythical Saraswati and enough evidence has been produced through not only scientific studies but also by differing explanations of even Rig Vedic edicts and other ancient Hindu texts. You may explain certain Mandalas of Rig Veda in one manner, and others may do it in a different manner. And such differing opinions and explanations are abound amongst Rig Vedic scholars from Republic of India most of all. Again what is wrong with that.

About King Chitra, I gave you reference where the author stated that his kingdom was in the neighbourhood of mythical Saraswati. In old and original Punjab, it could be in the neighbourhood of Jamuna as well, couldn't it? It could. And, as the mythical Saraswati could have flowed in Ganges river valley, and I have given references in this regard, why couldn't King Chitra's Kingdom not be in the neighbourhood of the same mythical Saraswati, flowing in the Ganges river valley. Why not.

You have an opinion about mythical Saraswati not being mythical or not being celestial. Many others do not agree with you. I have given links and references about all such theories. You feel that those who state this do not understand Sanskrit - may be, may not be. Many people of Republic of India also do not understand Sanskrit. So they go and read the opinion of experts in this field. You may not agree that this or that person is an expert or not - that's your opinion and you are entitled to have one. In the similar manner those who do not agree with you are also entitled to their opinion, till the time either is not convinced.

Welcome to the world where people hold different opinions and are at Liberty to express their views without any threat. Thank God for that, whichever God(s) you believe in or even if you don't believe in any.

And why a full stop - why not a semi-colon!
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Old December 1st, 2014, 09:06 AM   #1464
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In the study titled, "River Ghaggar, Saraswati? Geochemical constraints" by Jayant K. Tripathi, Barbara Bock, V. Rajamani and A. Eisenhauer, conducted under the auspices of School of Environmental Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, Republic of India, is excerpted to state that:

"The Ghaggar was also thought to be the mythical river Saraswati, which was described as glacial-fed river. Sr and Nd isotopic composition of the Ghaggar alluvium as well as Thar Desert sediments suggests a Sub-Himalayan sediment source, with no contribution from the glaciated regions."

http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/oct252004/1141.pdf

The study clearly substantiates what many other studies have also stated that Ghaggar-Hakra was never a glaciated river from high mountains as Rig Veda is famously believed to have stated for mythical Saraswati.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 10:54 AM   #1465
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Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
First of all, could you please tell me, who is "us", that you are talking about and I am guilty of annoying them.

Secondly, when I express even my personal opinion, posters here ask me to qualify my opinion or statement with references from experts. That is also one of the reasons I post links and references, in addition to the quotes from other authors that I additionally post for supporting my argument.

And then, you get annoyed with some of the authors I refer to, like Rajesh Kochar, Romila Thapar and others from Republic of India you do not agree with. Also Witzel and others from western countries etc, with whom you have disagreement of views. I also don't agree with some of the things they state and I agree with some of their expressed opinion. That's your opinion and I have mine. Like you have the liberty to have an opinion, I also reserve the right to have my own opinion. What's wrong with that.

I feel that Ghaggar-Hakra is not mythical Saraswati and enough evidence has been produced through not only scientific studies but also by differing explanations of even Rig Vedic edicts and other ancient Hindu texts. You may explain certain Mandalas of Rig Veda in one manner, and others may do it in a different manner. And such differing opinions and explanations are abound amongst Rig Vedic scholars from Republic of India most of all. Again what is wrong with that.

About King Chitra, I gave you reference where the author stated that his kingdom was in the neighbourhood of mythical Saraswati. In old and original Punjab, it could be in the neighbourhood of Jamuna as well, couldn't it? It could. And, as the mythical Saraswati could have flowed in Ganges river valley, and I have given references in this regard, why couldn't King Chitra's Kingdom not be in the neighbourhood of the same mythical Saraswati, flowing in the Ganges river valley. Why not.

You have an opinion about mythical Saraswati not being mythical or not being celestial. Many others do not agree with you. I have given links and references about all such theories. You feel that those who state this do not understand Sanskrit - may be, may not be. Many people of Republic of India also do not understand Sanskrit. So they go and read the opinion of experts in this field. You may not agree that this or that person is an expert or not - that's your opinion and you are entitled to have one. In the similar manner those who do not agree with you are also entitled to their opinion, till the time either is not convinced.

Welcome to the world where people hold different opinions and are at Liberty to express their views without any threat. Thank God for that, whichever God(s) you believe in or even if you don't believe in any.

And why a full stop - why not a semi-colon!
I have to laugh at your acts, you can not read the verses and talking of giving evidences, have no idea in difference how king 'Chitra' is spelled and how the constellation 'Chitra' and arguing too much, making hypothesis, Have no idea how wrongly references are given by Rajesh Kochar and copying his blog

You have not given any evidences other than copying from other's writings and that without knowing what they are writing, merely copy and paste.

Unless you learn Sanskrit and get ability to undersrtand what's there in the Sanskrit verses , yours is a dead case. you live with your faults, no discussion with you is worth.

Last edited by litsol; December 1st, 2014 at 10:58 AM.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 11:17 AM   #1466
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Originally Posted by litsol View Post
I have to laugh at your acts, you can not read the verses and talking of giving evidences, have no idea in difference how king 'Chitra' is spelled and how the constellation 'Chitra' and arguing too much, making hypothesis, Have no idea how wrongly references are given by Rajesh Kochar and copying his blog

You have not given any evidences other than copying from other's writings and that without knowing what they are writing, merely copy and paste.

Unless you learn Sanskrit and get ability to undersrtand what's there in the Sanskrit verses , yours is a dead case. you live with your faults, no discussion with you is worth.
If this is the case, then you would never be able to discuss anything with those who do not read, write or understand Sanskrit. That would include not only a large majority of people on this forum but the majority of people in your own country. Atleast I have read Rig Veda's English translation and some of the explanations, but Alas, I would also not be the one to gain from your fathomless knowledge about the scripture.

I am a dead case and that too in capitals. Hallelujah.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 11:26 AM   #1467
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Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
If this is the case, then you would never be able to discuss anything with those who do not read, write or understand Sanskrit. That would include not only a large majority of people on this forum but the majority of people in your own country. Atleast I have read Rig Veda's English translation and some of the explanations, but Alas, I would also not be the one to gain from your fathomless knowledge about the scripture.

I am a dead case and that too in capitals. Hallelujah.
Good !
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Old December 1st, 2014, 11:48 AM   #1468
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Good !
Good what?
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Old December 1st, 2014, 12:16 PM   #1469
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@litsol, at times what you state seems to emerge from your religious faith and do not seem to be analytical in nature. If you place an analysis, you will have to listen to differing views expressed by different people. If you express your religious faith, then probably there may not be any discussion that would be acceptable to you.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 03:14 PM   #1470

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Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
At present the Sarsuti and the Chautang both flow in channels deserted by the Old Yamuna.
Not sure why we are trying to prove Ghaggar as Saraswati or not, when we already have Sarsuti/Saraswati existing parallel to Ghaggar.

Click the image to open in full size.

You must remember that Indo-Aryans replicated the geographical terms a lot. If original Saraswati was in Afghanistan (Helmand flowing into Hamun), then it was replicated to a tributary of Ghaggar during Vedic Age, then to other parts of India: Allahabad, Gujarat and Bengal etc.

If original Sapta Sindhu was in Afghanistan, then it was replicated to North India during Vedic Age and then to entire Indian Subcontinent, as today the Sapta Sindhu is Sindh, Jamuna, Ganga, Narmada, Godavari, Krishna and Kaveri.

Similarly, lot of other geographical entities were replicated.
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