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Old December 14th, 2014, 01:30 PM   #1
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Blond Christians from China aka Cumans


This my text from another thread:

We were told that Cumans were also Turkic. Kipchak Turks!- we often hear due Cuman-Kipchak confederation. Yet Cumans were blond hair, fair skin and blue eyes. Their ethnic origin is uncertain. Robert Wolff states that it is conjectured that ethnically the Cumans may not originally have been Turkic. Al Marwazi in 12 century wrote that Qun came from land of Qitay-China borders and that they were Nestorian Christian. Magyrs also called them Qun. I dont know how where they called in Bulgaria and Wallachia. Armenian Matthew of Edessa called Cumans Khartes (χartešk) which means blond, pale, fair.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 01:55 PM   #2
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Harold Lamb, in his books THE CRUSADES (2d volume) and MARCH OF THE BARBARIANS, attributed the European coloring of the Kipchaks to intermarriage with Scandinavians (he called them Vikings). It will be noted that about the 900s, some Scandinavians did come into what are now Russian and Ukranian lands and established dynasties.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 03:29 PM   #3
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Does he mention Pechenegs?
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Old December 15th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #4
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I cannot recall Lamb mentioning Pechenegs in either work.

But, I am recalling reading in the 1950s-early 1960s. I may be off.

Even getting the books in the library today may be difficult.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 12:16 AM   #5

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How were they blond if they are Nestorians? Weren't Nestorians generally from the East (Levant, Anatolia, Mesopotamia)?

So just because a people was called blond, pale, fair, they somehow are not Turkic now. lol.

Does blond mean pale? Does pale mean fair? Does fair mean blond? How come they all mean the same thing? An Asian, compared to the Near Easterners, looks pale anyway.

I could call a Chinese pale or fair and a Greek swarthy. What gives?
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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:37 AM   #6
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of course there is zero description of them saying they were blond. Most likely they were Asian-European mix what you would expect anyways from an Eurasian steppe people.

Regarding their name, the armenian kharteshk, the Slavic polovec, the German Valwen/falben etc which all mean pale, fair, i heard two theories, these are either a direct translation of the "qu" root in their name that could have a similar pale meaning or a translation of "sari" (yellow) or "ak" white. Color names are fairly common among Turkic steppe peoples, mostly denoting geographic location. In Hungarian chronicles there is also a distinction between white and black Cumans, these doesn't mean the black Cumans were racially Black. Regarding the religion, there were some Nestorian missionary activities in Central Asia, but that is certain that those Cumans who appeared in Eastern and Central Europe in the 11th century were absolutely pagans, there are both Russian, Hungarian, Byzantine and other European often first hand accounts about them and also archeological research of their burials. Marwazi could either confuse them in his account with another Turkic people or only a subgroup of the early Cumans were Nestorians, but those didn't make to Europe. Another theory i heard about their pale, fair name that it could denote some tribal or horse color in reality.

A Cuman burial statue from present day Ukraine

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Tulun; December 16th, 2014 at 01:43 AM.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 07:26 AM   #7
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Want Parthians blond? Some of them?
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Old December 18th, 2014, 08:55 AM   #8
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Last edited by Vola; December 18th, 2014 at 09:00 AM.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 11:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vola View Post
Want Parthians blond? Some of them?
Werent--Want
lapsus linguae
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Old December 20th, 2014, 11:09 PM   #10
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I live in China and have went to Xinjiang and met people from there, and a lot of them are basically white people, not asiatic at all in looks. Some look Turkish or Arabic. Last weekend, there was a Xinjiang food festival and I bought some lamb off a Ughyer Who if had an American southern accent would fit right in America.
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