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Yeongsang February 22nd, 2015 03:00 PM

Foundations of Chinese Civilization: A Theory
 
A while ago, I foundd a theory online that describes the earliest foundations of Chinese civilization,

Quote:

Chinese civilization was founded when settlers from ancient Joseon in the northeast conquered the Yellow River and built a string of fortress cities on the southern banks of the Yellow River, administered from Yinxu the capital on the the northern bank. Originally, the Yellow River was lived on by ancient Cantonese. The ancient Joseonites learned the language of the Cantonese in order to rule the population better. The Cantonese didn't stand a chance against the ordered military of the Joseonites.

Being as clever as they are known for, some Cantonese escaped and founded Chu. This is why the southern provinces speak a more native form of Cantonese today.

The Joseonites needed a way to communicate between the fortress cities so they devised a new writing system. This is what eventually became Chinese characters.

Eventually, the king of Yinxu became erratic and insane so the string of Joseon citadels on the southern banks rebelled and overthrew the Shang dynasty. Some of these courts just went back to ancient Joseon where they became lords of one of its western regions.

Enter the Zhou dynasty:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ty_1000_BC.png
It implied that China was founded by Altaics who adopted a Cantonese language to rule the population better, perhaps leading to a divergence in Sinitic languages in the form of Mandarin.

Now this is not the Altaic language group that often comes to mind when someone says Altaic. Rather it is the ancient Altaic empire that originated from the vicinity of the Altai mountains that is often known in the west as Scythians.

Names and labels come in many form, but the mechanics of the theories are essentially the same for how this Altaic empire relates to the founding of Chinese civilization and perhaps beyond. For example,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...x-Gojoseon.gif

What we have here is a comprehensive theory on the Altaic foundations of Chinese civilization that is nearly a theory of everything with respect to East Asian history.

Haakbus February 22nd, 2015 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeongsang (Post 2097829)
A while ago, I foundd a theory online that describes the earliest foundations of Chinese civilization,



It implied that China was founded by Altaics who adopted a Cantonese language to rule the population better, perhaps leading to a divergence in Sinitic languages in the form of Mandarin.

Now this is not the Altaic language group that often comes to mind when someone says Altaic. Rather it is the ancient Altaic empire that originated from the vicinity of the Altai mountains that is often known in the west as Scythians.

Names and labels come in many form, but the mechanics of the theories are essentially the same for how this Altaic empire relates to the founding of Chinese civilization and perhaps beyond. For example,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...x-Gojoseon.gif

What we have here is a comprehensive theory on the Altaic foundations of Chinese civilization that is nearly a theory of everything with respect to East Asian history.

What is the evidence that this is based on?

Yeongsang February 22nd, 2015 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haakbus (Post 2097843)
What is the evidence that this is based on?

I feel this theory is consistent with the vast majority of known facts in existence today.

So where should I start?

Haakbus February 22nd, 2015 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeongsang (Post 2097859)
I feel this theory is consistent with the vast majority of known facts in existence today.

So where should I start?

Start with the evidence that Joseonites (I assume you mean Gojoseon-ish people) existed that far back and that they lived in what is now China.

Yeongsang February 22nd, 2015 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haakbus (Post 2097868)
Start with the evidence that Joseonites (Gojoseon-ish people, I assume) existed that far back and that they lived in what is now China.

Ancient records demonstrate a sort of close relationship existed between Joseon and the Yellow River.

We also find archeological support for the elites of Shang coming from the areas northeast of the Yellow River, namely the Hongshan culture.

Haakbus February 22nd, 2015 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeongsang (Post 2097875)
Ancient records demonstrate a sort of close relationship existed between Joseon and the Yellow River.

We also find archeological support for the elites of Shang coming from the areas northeast of the Yellow River, namely the Hongshan culture.

Just what are these ancient records?

I know there are some things in common between the Hongshan culture and early Sinitic civilization, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Shang elites came from that region. And also, we need evidence that Hongshan and Gojoseon (or Baedal or Hwanguk, if either of those existed) are related.

ise February 22nd, 2015 04:19 PM

Quote:

The ancient Joseonites learned the language of the Cantonese in order to rule the population better
Cantonese didn't exist as a language, kimchi "Hwahn-gook" boy. They would have had to learn Old Chinese and then done the North Chinese the favor of spreading a North Chinese/Tibetan lineage.

Yeongsang February 22nd, 2015 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haakbus (Post 2097878)
Just what are these ancient records?

I know there are some things in common between the Hongshan culture and early Sinitic civilization, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Shang elites came from that region. And also, we need evidence that Hongshan and Gojoseon (or Baedal or Hwanguk, if either of those existed) are related.

Actually, there is a strong evidence indicating that the elites of Shang came from Hongshan for archeological/cultural reasons. The area is even being dubbed as China's first kingdom.

Moving on, records show that a certain Shang royal family member moved to Joseon and became a ruler there at the end of the Shang dynasty. How we should interpret this record is that a part of the Shang ruling house moved back to Joseon.

Haakbus February 22nd, 2015 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeongsang (Post 2097886)
Actually, there is a strong evidence indicating that the elites of Shang came from Hongshan for archeological/cultural reasons. The area is even being dubbed as China's first kingdom.

Moving on, records show that a certain Shang royal family member moved to Joseon and became a ruler there at the end of the Shang dynasty. How we should interpret this record is that a part of the Shang ruling house moved back to Joseon.

What is the strong evidence?

Can you post the relevant passages here, or at least provide the names, please?

Yeongsang February 22nd, 2015 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haakbus (Post 2097889)
Can you post the relevant passages here, or at least provide the names, please?

Shiji by Sima Qian. Jizi/Gija of the Shang royal family.


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