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Old March 26th, 2015, 09:09 AM   #21
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I'm new to the Chinese history, but I enjoyed reading about the Ming?

What can you say about them? In contrast with Song Dynasty
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Old March 26th, 2015, 10:26 AM   #22

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Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
The more I learn about the Song, the more I like about it. It seems that the Song was already on the verge of becoming a modern society, but too bad the Mongol invasion and destruction interrupted Song's progress and brought China back down into a third world backwater.
It would really interest me how they did it. Not how they defeat the Song, but how they brought China back down into a third world backwater. All I know is basically that the Mongol destruction was really light compared to what happened everywhere else. I can hardly imagine that the following Yuan Dynasty dismissed all the awesomeness of the Song, if it was really awesome that is. I can see there were a lot of nice inventions during the Song dynasty, but the dynasty lasted many centuries, but then again u can say it lastet that long, because it was awesome ..
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Old March 26th, 2015, 10:46 AM   #23
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Good post, I learned a lot. Song was indeed the most prosperous and the most open-minded of all Chinese dynasties, and it probably had the best living standard.

I also heard that the Song was the first in the world to issue paper currency, and the Song government also built houses for the poor and the disabled people, took care of them, and even supported for their education.

The more I learn about the Song, the more I like about it. It seems that the Song was already on the verge of becoming a modern society, but too bad the Mongol invasion and destruction interrupted Song's progress and brought China back down into a third world backwater.
This is a clear dillusion from you, what kind of Chinese propaganda are you on. Must be angry that Mongol Ruled China.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 10:58 AM   #24

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I don't study the Song, but from a literary perspective it saw the rise of short stories and ci poetry; the first tying into broader trends that set the stage for Ming fiction and the second being influential and admired in and of itself. A literary golden age? Probably not when compared to the Tang or Ming, but certainly still flourishing.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:07 PM   #25
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This is a clear dillusion from you, what kind of Chinese propaganda are you on. Must be angry that Mongol Ruled China.
I just post about what I have read, it's my opinion, if you don't agree with me, then it's OK, post your source to refute me instead, don't use ad hominem.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:42 PM   #26
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It would really interest me how they did it. Not how they defeat the Song, but how they brought China back down into a third world backwater. All I know is basically that the Mongol destruction was really light compared to what happened everywhere else.
Really light? Here are some primary sources about Mongol massacre and destruction

Quote:
元军强克常州后实行屠城,城内外积骸万数,至不可计。井池沟堑,无不充满。仅余妇女婴儿四百 而已。

长江中下游流域的襄、郢、东西淮之地,是宋元长期对抗作战的地区,战争破坏相当严重,土旷民寡。宋元之间长 期争夺的又一地区四川,入元版图时,土著之姓十亡七八,户口凋零,生意萧条。直到中元,仍遗墟败棘,郡县 降废几半 (王磐:《农桑辑要序》,《农桑辑要》卷首。)元朝对于江南的征服,不可能不伴随杀戮与破坏。阿里海牙经略 两湖,留下不少残酷杀戮的记录;伯颜大军在长江下游,也一度由于利财剽杀,是致降城四壁之外,县邑丘虚, 旷土无民③。江西闽浙一带,亦因元军左翦左攘,数年未平,迭经战争残破。

其中以四川为烈,由于遭遇了蒙古大屠杀,仅仅成都就积尸140万,四川人口从嘉定十六年(1223年)的2 59万户下降到了1290年的20万户左右,下降幅度超过90%,出现了四川人口史的极端情况。
Translation:

When Yuan armies conquered Changzhou, they started to massacre the inhabitants of the city, "tens of thousands of corpses are found inside and outside of the city, almost countless deaths. All the gutters, pools, and wells are filled with dead bodies. There were only four hundred survivors, most of them were women and babies."

The area around the Lower Yangtse region, places like Xiang, Cheng, and Huai, was where Song and Yuan armies fought one another, the destruction was severe, with a lot empty lands but few inhabitants. Sichuan was another place that Song and Mongols fought, when Yuan conquered Sichuan, seven or eight out of ten native inhabitants had been dead, even until the mid-Yuan, Sichuan still had "many ruins, with almost half of the counties abandoned or uninhabited" (Wang Pan, 《Nong Sang Ji Yao》, 《Nong Sang Ji Yao》Preface) Yuan's conquest of southern China was accompanied with brutality and destruction. Ali Haiya (Yuan official) administered the provinces of Liang Hu (Hubei and Hunan), and he had left many brutal accounts of destruction and killing. Bayan's army was stationed around the Lower Yangtse region, and they also killed many inhabitants, their destruction was so severe that "the surrendered cities and counties were almost left with no people" The regions of Jiangxi and Min Zhe also suffered from the war.

Sichuan suffered the most, Mongol massacred the native inhabitants of Sichuan, only in Chengdu it is recorded that there were 1400,000 corpses. Sichuan's total population fell down from 2590,000 households in 1223 to only 200,000 households in 1290, a drop of 90%, a very severe situation in China's population history

My translation might not be 100% accurate, but you get the sense of destruction the Yuan Mongols brought upon China.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:43 PM   #27
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I just post about what I have read, it's my opinion, if you don't agree with me, then it's OK, post your source to refute me instead, don't use ad hominem.
I love Chinese history and people, but that is messed tho, what historian called the Yuan Dynasty a third world?????

He must be crazy or something, Wikipedia has a good article on it, I know the Han where like Second Class Citizen, but they weren't a third world country.

The Ming Dynasty adopted many Yuan things, like the garrison army for a unified China, Astronomer and Mathematics.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:47 PM   #28
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I love Chinese history and people, but that is messed tho, what historian called the Yuan Dynasty a third world?????

He must be crazy or something, Wikipedia has a good article on it, I know the Han where like Second Class Citizen, but they weren't a third world country.

The Ming Dynasty adopted many Yuan things, like the garrison army for a unified China, Astronomer and Mathematics.
Ok, I was wrong to use the word "Third World", but that doesn't change the fact that the Yuan was a conquest dynasty and that they destroyed many cities and massacred many people.

I'm southern Chinese, and I dislike the Yuan. There's no reason at all for me to like them.

Can you see the above translation that I posted? Read it carefully and you'll understand why I dislike the Yuan.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
Really light? Here are some primary sources about Mongol massacre and destruction



Translation:

When Yuan armies conquered Changzhou, they started to massacre the inhabitants of the city, "tens of thousands of corpses are found inside and outside of the city, almost countless deaths. All the gutters, pools, and wells are filled with dead bodies. There were only four hundred survivors, most of them were women and babies."

The area around the Lower Yangtse region, places like Xiang, Cheng, and Huai, was where Song and Yuan armies fought one another, the destruction was severe, with a lot empty lands but few inhabitants. Sichuan was another place that Song and Mongols fought, when Yuan conquered Sichuan, seven or eight out of ten native inhabitants had been dead, even until the mid-Yuan, Sichuan still had "many ruins, with almost half of the counties abandoned or uninhabited" (Wang Pan, 《Nong Sang Ji Yao》, 《Nong Sang Ji Yao》Preface) Yuan's conquest of southern China was accompanied with brutality and destruction. Ali Haiya (Yuan official) administered the provinces of Liang Hu (Hubei and Hunan), and he had left many brutal accounts of destruction and killing. Bayan's army was stationed around the Lower Yangtse region, and they also killed many inhabitants, their destruction was so severe that "the surrendered cities and counties were almost left with no people" The regions of Jiangxi and Min Zhe also suffered from the war.

Sichuan suffered the most, Mongol massacred the native inhabitants of Sichuan, only in Chengdu it is recorded that there were 1400,000 corpses. Sichuan's total population fell down from 2590,000 households in 1223 to only 200,000 households in 1290, a drop of 90%, a very severe situation in China's population history

My translation might not be 100% accurate, but you get the sense of destruction the Yuan Mongols brought upon China.
And after the destruction they built, did you expect them to give flowers. There is too much anti-Yuan propaganda here. Anyone can dig deep and find massacres and wars in every Empire.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:55 PM   #30
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Ok, I was wrong to use the word "Third World", but that doesn't change the fact that the Yuan was a conquest dynasty and that they destroyed many cities and massacred many people.

I'm southern Chinese, and I dislike the Yuan. There's no reason at all for me to like them.

Can you see the above translation that I posted? Read it carefully and you'll understand why I dislike the Yuan.
Most dynasties were conquest dynasties, there was brutality everywhere, do Southern Chinese like you really care about the Yuan have done. My Southern Chinese friend doesn't care about Yuan, when I asked him about it, or maybe he doesn't care about history.
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