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Old March 26th, 2015, 01:03 PM   #31
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Most dynasties were conquest dynasties, there was brutality everywhere, do Southern Chinese like you really care about the Yuan have done. My Southern Chinese friend doesn't care about Yuan, when I asked him about it, or maybe he doesn't care about history.
Ok, you like Yuan, that's fine, it's your opinion, and I respect your opinion.

But I dislike Yuan, that's my opinion, and I have the freedom to express my opinion, you can't force me to change my opinion.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 01:20 PM   #32
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Ok, you like Yuan, that's fine, it's your opinion, and I respect your opinion.

But I dislike Yuan, that's my opinion, and I have the freedom to express my opinion, you can't force me to change my opinion.
I'm not forcing you to change your opinion, this is the internet, how can I force you? Defending Yuan Dynasty is not liking Yuan Dynasty. I just feel it is propaganda, maybe your grandpa hated Mongol people anyway. If you hate Yuan Dynasties because they killed people you suppose to hate all Dynasties in China.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 02:59 PM   #33

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Really light? Here are some primary sources about Mongol massacre and destruction
Well yeah, I guess even the lightest Mongol Conquest wasn't much pretty. And those numbers are usually inflated. But like I said, compared to your typical dime a dozen Mongol conquest it was rather light. For the trouble the Song gave the Mongols, one can only fathom what Genghis Khan would have done. But luckily for the Song, Khubilei was mostly at the wheel and he wasn't ur usual Mongol: "In a remarkable departure from their usual practice, the Mongols rode into Dali behind banners bearing the identical message, "on pain of death, do not kill." The city fell to Kublai and the Mongols with a total loss of only six men: three Mongol officers and their two Dali executioners and the city's chief minister for defying Kublai's order. As a leader, Kublai was already showing himself to be civilized enough to realize that mercy could be as effective a weapon as massacre had been." (Expanding the Realm) And the Chinese seems to favor him: Kublai Khan: China's favourite barbarian - BBC News

Anyway, those things leave me with the impression, it wasn't THAT bad for the Chinese. And I know the Song Chinese belonged to the last class in the system Khubilei introduced, but that was because they were the last ones to be conquered. Nothing personal, I guess.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 04:16 PM   #34
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And the Chinese seems to favor him: Kublai Khan: China's favourite barbarian - BBC News
I am not sure if the "toggle-and-loop button" could really reconcile the Chinese with their bloody conquest, but nonetheless interesting:

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"Prior to this time, men and women had always closed their robes with some sort of belt. But, the Yuan dynasty is credited with bringing to China the toggle-and-loop button, which now today we just call Chinese. It's a real marker of Chinese dress that they're closed with these toggle-and-loop buttons. But they didn't really come in until the Yuan dynasty."
What about winter clothing? Did pre-Yuan Chinese contend themselves too with a belt only?
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Old March 27th, 2015, 07:09 AM   #35

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I am not sure if the "toggle-and-loop button" could really reconcile the Chinese with their bloody conquest
Uh, probably not worth it. But what can'ya expect from nomadic barbarians who were all busy trying to conquer the world? The greatest "gift" the Mongols gave China was probably its territory, or thats what the Chinese decided - can't blame them, they are probably just trying to get the best out of it.

But I have read here something like "the Song Dynasty was the most open minded." and thats actually something I would credit the Yuan Dynasty for. And maybe I am being too ignorant, but ur typical Chinese Dynasty was never open-minded. They thought they were da best. At some point they most ceratinly had the tools to do what the europeans did, colonizing the world, "sharing its wealth" with others, but they didn't do it. This gave me always some kind of a "stagnant vibe".

Last edited by Sephiroth; March 27th, 2015 at 07:11 AM.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 08:40 AM   #36
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But I have read here something like "the Song Dynasty was the most open minded." and thats actually something I would credit the Yuan Dynasty for. And maybe I am being too ignorant, but ur typical Chinese Dynasty was never open-minded. They thought they were da best. At some point they most ceratinly had the tools to do what the europeans did, colonizing the world, "sharing its wealth" with others, but they didn't do it. This gave me always some kind of a "stagnant vibe".
Every Chinese dynasty thought they were the best, no matter whether the rulers were ethnic Chinese or not. Mongol Yuan and Manchu Qing also thought they were the best. And this attitude was not just limited to China, the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Indians, you name it, they all thought they were the best.

However, I still think that the Song Dynasty was more open-minded than some later dynasties such as Ming or Qing. The Song encouraged marine trade, and unlike the Ming or the Qing, the Song never issued any ban on foreign trade AFAIK. Many Persians and Arabs lived in Song's port cities. Quanzhou became one of the largest port in the world during the Song period, and there was a thriving Persian merchant community in Quanzhou. One man named Pu Shougeng, who was of Persian descent, even became a governor of Quanzhou, controlling the trade and the ships.

Assumptions such as "your typical Chinese dynasty was never open-minded" is definitely biased. Han, Tang, and Song were actually quite open-minded, contrary to your biased assumptions.

Last edited by purakjelia; March 27th, 2015 at 08:46 AM.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 10:20 AM   #37

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^
Ok, I was most likely wrong then. I give u that, because I dont actually know very little about Chinese History. Good thing, I wrote "maybe I am too ignorant" huh
But can we make a compromise, that the Chinese were really vain people?^^
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Old March 27th, 2015, 10:35 AM   #38
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^
Ok, I was most likely wrong then. I give u that, because I dont actually know very little about Chinese History. Good thing, I wrote "maybe I am too ignorant" huh
But can we make a compromise, that the Chinese were really vain people?^^
I think every major ancient civilization was vainglorious, not just the Chinese.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 11:59 AM   #39

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I think every major ancient civilization was vainglorious, not just the Chinese.
I agree though it seems interesting that Chinese dynasties usually felt less need to 'prove' how strong they were in conquests of others. I've always suspected it was due to rather long history and awareness of the past. Later Roman Empire didn't feel much need to prove its strength either- and was mostly concerned with stability.
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Old March 27th, 2015, 12:07 PM   #40
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But to be fair, Mongols, Manchus, and other northern ethnicities did make some contributions to China, whether voluntarily or involuntarily.

China inherited a larger territory from the Manchus and the Mongols. If the Song or the Ming haven't been overthrown, then China's territory could be much smaller than today. Of course smaller territory isn't always a bad thing, and larger territory isn't always a good thing, it depends on your perspective.

Northern Chinese cuisine, especially Beijing cuisine, was also heavily influenced by the northern peoples. Beijing hotpot probably originated from Mongolian hotpot, and Beijing yoghurt and desserts were probably also influenced by the Manchus.

The Xianbei peoples during the Age of Fragmentation also influenced China on various aspects including religion, artistic style, armor and weapons, clothing, and furniture.

Last edited by purakjelia; March 27th, 2015 at 12:10 PM.
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