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Old September 10th, 2017, 05:45 AM   #51

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Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
Well a postman works for the government, but he isn't an 'official.'

An official has to be ranked, at the minimum. An 8th rank assistant mayor (of sort) gets 180 guan/yr, and that's probably as low as 'official' one can get. Maybe we can go lower to the 曹s.

But going further I think an official is someone who can make decision on behalf of the government in some capacity. Not everyone working for the government is an official. So I think someone has to be at least in the leadership position, someone who has passed the CSE.
Glad we cleared that up. Do you have any sourcing on the wages of Song officials and laborers? X guan/year mean nothing to me in terms of how much it can buy, I'm afraid most of my wage knowledge is from those of the Han dynasty.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 04:42 PM   #52
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Are you distinguishing civil servants and officials?
Yes. A civil servant is an employee, where as an official, by definition, is one who held an office that represent the state and authority of that office.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 05:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by HackneyedScribe View Post
Glad we cleared that up. Do you have any sourcing on the wages of Song officials and laborers? X guan/year mean nothing to me in terms of how much it can buy, I'm afraid most of my wage knowledge is from those of the Han dynasty.
Su Shi mentioned after his exile that his monthly expenditure is about 4500 qian, (it's sometimes hard to actively measure how much 1 guan is to qian during Song dynasty, but I am lazy so we will go with 1000 per guan).

In the Water Margins, Niu Er said, what kind of birdy sword cost this much cash! I spend 30 wen and can buy one, can cut meat and can cut tofu. Wu Yong spend 1 guan/1 liang silver to purchase 1 vase of wine, 10 kg of beef, and a pair of chicken.

Before Shenzong, according to 食货志1 shi of rice is around 600 ~ 700 qian.

According to 中国税收制度史, during Renzong, salt tax is 18.5% of revenue, and it was 7,150,000 guan, so total government revenue is 21,350,000 guan.

For reference.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 04:30 AM   #54

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Su Shi mentioned after his exile that his monthly expenditure is about 4500 qian, (it's sometimes hard to actively measure how much 1 guan is to qian during Song dynasty, but I am lazy so we will go with 1000 per guan).

In the Water Margins, Niu Er said, what kind of birdy sword cost this much cash! I spend 30 wen and can buy one, can cut meat and can cut tofu. Wu Yong spend 1 guan/1 liang silver to purchase 1 vase of wine, 10 kg of beef, and a pair of chicken.

Before Shenzong, according to 食货志1 shi of rice is around 600 ~ 700 qian.
Not sure how accurate Water Margins can be used as a source. It may be set in the Song dynasty, but it's not written during the Song dynasty.

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According to 中国税收制度史, during Renzong, salt tax is 18.5% of revenue, and it was 7,150,000 guan, so total government revenue is 21,350,000 guan.
What did the Chinese tax history use for its source? Also if 7.15 million guan was its total salt revenue, which takes up 18.5% of revenue, then shouldn't total revenue be 38.65 million guan?
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Old September 11th, 2017, 10:49 AM   #55
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Not sure how accurate Water Margins can be used as a source. It may be set in the Song dynasty, but it's not written during the Song dynasty.
The issue with Song is that the cost of pre Anshi reform and post Anshi reform differ vastly. Take these with a grain of salt.

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What did the Chinese tax history use for its source? Also if 7.15 million guan was its total salt revenue, which takes up 18.5% of revenue, then shouldn't total revenue be 38.65 million guan?
I check my calculator's history, apparently I press enter twice, so I did the division twice, 38.65m is the correct number.

As for sources, I believe he used 中国经济通史 & 两宋财政史
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Old September 11th, 2017, 11:40 AM   #56
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两宋财政史 had some very good take as well.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Last edited by mariusj; September 11th, 2017 at 12:15 PM.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #57

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两宋财政史 had some very good take as well.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Picts aren't showing on my end.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 12:35 PM   #58
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OK try this. It's on a bit of the tax income & the Li's 'wages.'
Attached Images
File Type: jpg income song.jpg (103.6 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg wine tax and other.jpg (41.9 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg LI'S COST 1.jpg (119.7 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg LI COST 2.jpg (123.9 KB, 5 views)
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Old September 11th, 2017, 06:40 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
OK try this. It's on a bit of the tax income & the Li's 'wages.'
I am an idiot and I don't know how to edit.

Song Income jpg says the following

According to Qun Shu Kao Suo, the tax from tea, during the time of Zhengzong, it was pretty good. According to Chang Pian book 66 & Book of Song book 183, during 1004, the Song court received 569M guan, 1006 410M guan, 1007 208M guan. In 1004, the tax code hasn't been updated so a lot of the figure was propped up and inaccurate. In 1013, 200M guan, in 1014, 300M guan, 1015, 390M guan, 1016, 160M guan. The income during Taizong's period was 16M guan to 26.5M guan during Zhengzong.

Wine tax jpg says
From the founding of the nation the income revenue was most during 1008-1022. Towards the end of Tianxi period (1022) wine tax went from 1.2M (996) guan to 7.75M guan. Other port city and holding's taxes all multiplied. The salt tax went from 0.72M guan (996) to 1.63M guan. In 996, 0.83M guan of cash was minted, in 1007 1.83M guan minted.

In Li's cost 1 jpg, partial translated

During Song, the unranked li & gong ren, included those whose public service count towards yi (or taxes) is far more than the ranked officials. Before Anshi's reform, we can divide them into 2 groups, those that are employed by the government, and those that are doing their public duty. Neither has a fixed salary. Sheng Kuo said that they must take bribe, and they were often rich. During Zhengzong's time counted 195802, many of them are unranked. During Yingzong's time, 536,000 and some.

In 1070, the expenditure for the capital's public servants cost 3834 guan, in 1075, 371533 guan.

In 1073, Shengzong and Wang Anshi were talking about the situation, the expenditure is 1.09M guan (0.41M for the capital, 0.68m for the provinces)
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