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Old May 3rd, 2015, 08:19 PM   #21
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In Gandhara atleast, Greeks were ruling elites who in first century BC were eliminated by Iranic invaders. People do not descend from invaders particularly if invaders leave less than 100 words in local languages.

Major impact of Greek rule over Bactria was that Bactrian language was now written in Greek script and later day Iranic invaders adopted Hellenic high culture so you see even Saka Nahapana using Greek in Gujrat.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 05:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Saviour View Post
I know that much. Yes, Greeks set up kingdoms after Seleucids but point is what is basis for your claim that Aroras are prisoners of war and Khatris Alex army? I can say that Tandons are Tocharians and Dhawans are dacians, does it mean anything?
Basis for this is the belief among these people themselves that Khatris are warrior and aroras are inferior to Khatris though both accept being related to same group.

Arora Khatris are the Yavanas of ancient times is beyond any reasonable doubt because.

They inhabited same areas where IndoGreeks settled earlier.

This group is fairest in skin color and only Indian group which posses Europian haplogroup H.

Some of their customs are non Vedic like marrying in same clans which is taboo for north Indian Vedic people.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 05:04 PM   #23
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In Gandhara atleast, Greeks were ruling elites who in first century BC were eliminated by Iranic invaders..
They were defeated not eliminated.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 07:47 PM   #24
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First we need clarify a few things here. To make a sense of what we are talking about we need to be precise about this.

*Greeks invaded India - Greeks took control over present day North West Pakistan.
*Arabs invaded Europe - Arabs took control over present day Spain.

These two are facts. What was Arab effect on Europe. Well it depends. Are we talking about Estonia? Norway? Moldavia? Austria? There was absolutely no effect of Arab invasion of Europe in any of these countries for the simple fact that the Arab's never went to those parts of Europe.

They only went to one corner of Europe - Spain. If there were any secondary influences into rest of Europe they were diffuse. However within Spain Arab impact was significant as testified by the various Moorish architecture like Al Hambra in Granada. However your not going to find any Al Hambra's in Riga, Latvia.

Arabic Kufic decotative writing in Spain.

Click the image to open in full size.

Let us look at the actual area that bore the impact of Greek influence. As mentioned by the earlier example of Arab/Europe which in fact was Arab/Spain in this case to understand this it would not be Greek/India but Greek/North West Pakistan.

The area that the Greeks impacted on was in what is now north west of Pakistan. We need to home onto the actual region as opposed using blunt descriptor like India which is a huge sub continent equivalent to Europe. Please look at the map below at the exact area impacted.

First the location in red of the Greek Gandhara Kingdoms within South Asia. Taxila was the major centre of Greek Backtrian Kingdom. As can be seen the area marked in red line falls with north west Pakistan and goes over into eastern Afghanistan. Essentially from Pakistan's capital Islamabad to Afghan capital Kabul.

Click the image to open in full size.

Then a zoomed up map of North West Pakistan with Taxila which is just on the outskirt of Islamabad, Pakistan's capital. Please note Abbotabad about 10 miles north of Taxila. This district on north west side of Islamabad is called Hazara.

Click the image to open in full size.


This is the extreme close up of the Islamabad-Taxila-Rawalpindi Capital Metropolitan Area with Hazara district just on the north west of the capital area.

Click the image to open in full size.

Now instead of looking at this subject at almost continent level you have zoomed to the exact area within north west Pakistan where Greek influence impacted. Thus it's influence might have been diffuse as regards the continent but within this area and in particular Islamabad, Taxila and Hazara district the effect should have been significant. This is where the Greek Bactrians lived and died.

Most of the Greek coins and other Greek inspired artifects have been found in Taxila as marked on the map adjacent to Islamabad capital area..

Greek Coins, Taxila, Pakistan.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Jandial Temple, Taxila, Pakistan resembling Greek temples.

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Again Taxila, Pakistan with clear Backtrian Greek influence.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Demetrius Bactrian Greek King

Click the image to open in full size.

For those interested there is Taxila Museum, Pakistan which holds most of the Greek artifacts found in Taxila.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxila_Museum"]Taxila Museum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ta...tm%3B540%3B360

As regards the people found there we can't use Islamabad the capital as referance because it has recieved people from everywhere. However just above Taxila the Abottabad valley about 7 miles north of Taxila remains a rural area where the Hazara people who speak Hindkho reside much as they did over centuries. We can't into into genetics however the mode of the population is far more meditearanean then compared to rest of South Asia. Further west the Pashtun belt starts which again resembles populations more to the west. You can draw your own conclusions.

However you must not look at the Greek influences by searching all of South Asia. Like I said we know Arabs invaded Europe but you don't search in Estonia for any influences. You look at the actual location where they invaded, that is Spain.

In this case you need to be looking at north west Pakistan. As you can see there are coins, other artifacts and architecture left with clear Greek imprint. I think Hellenic influence is undeniable here. These make history alive. If you walk in the ruins of Taxila the past almost comes alive. You are literally walking on the footsteps of Alexander as we know he came to Taxila.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara"]Gandhara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seated_Buddha_from_Gandhara"]Seated Buddha from Gandhara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


A group of men dancing to the local Attan, Abbotabad about 7 miles north of Taxila in Hazara District, Abottabad, can be seen on the map North of Taxila, Pakistan. We can't post genetic information here however this area has higher linkage with western populations then most of South Asia.

The area to the West all the way to Afghanistan is dominated by mix of Hazara or Pashtuns both populations have strong western bearing about them and are know across South Asia as such.

If in 2,000 years historians wanted to look at the effects of Normandy landings on D-Day you would hardly search around on the Mediteranean beach in Greece even if both Normandy and Greece are in Europe.

Moral of the story. If you want to see Alexander's or Bactrian Greek influence and impact or lack thereof in South Asia your going to have to lock onto Pakistan because that is the area that was impacted. Your not going to find it in India even if books say India. Geographic names change over the millenia.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP3CSiCGUhc"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP3CSiCGUhc[/ame]


Good book to read on the subject with details and maps of this area including collection of coins.

The Greeks in Ancient Pakistan
by RAFI SAMAD

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by PaKeeza; May 17th, 2015 at 09:04 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 08:39 PM   #25
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For referance Alexander the great's route transposed over modern countries and cities. So if you are going to look at something can we get the geography right. Not search for Troy in Norway even if both are in Europe.

If you want to navigate the area please click below and zoom on Google Earth.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...8d73641e?hl=en


Greeks in Pakistan.

The invasion of Alexander the Great of the territories,which now constitute Pakistan ,was an event of great significance not only because of the extraordinary nature of the military expenditure undertaken by one of the worlds greatest conquerors, but also because it was the first time that direct contacts were established between Europe & South Asia. Alexanders invasion opend up a new era of mutually benificial trade and cultural exchanges between the two regions,more than 2,000 miles apart.

The fairly intense interaction between ancient South Asia and Greece,which commenced with the invasion of invasion of Alexander in fourth century BC, continued for almost seven centuries till the middle of 5th century AD. After Alexander it was the Seleucid and Bactrian Greeks settled in West and Central Asia,who continued to interact from across the borders,before the Bactrian/Indus Greeks conquered Gandhara and Punjab, Ancient Pakistan in the begining of 1st century BC.The Indus Greeks were succeeded by the philhellenic Scythian,Parthians and Kushans,who continued to rule Ancient Pakistan,till the middle of 5th century AD


Taxila Museum, Pakistan. Headbusts from Bactrian Greek period found in ancient Bactrian Greek city of Taxila. I think it would safe to say they bear strong Hellenic influence.

Click the image to open in full size.

Taxila ruins, Pakistan.

Click the image to open in full size.

Map tracing the approx. route of Alexander the Great from Greece to present day Pakistan being the eastern limit of his conquest before he turned back.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by PaKeeza; May 17th, 2015 at 09:32 PM.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 01:16 AM   #26

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaKeeza View Post
For referance Alexander the great's route transposed over modern countries and cities. So if you are going to look at something can we get the geography right. Not search for Troy in Norway even if both are in Europe.

If you want to navigate the area please click below and zoom on Google Earth.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...8d73641e?hl=en


Greeks in Pakistan.

The invasion of Alexander the Great of the territories,which now constitute Pakistan ,was an event of great significance not only because of the extraordinary nature of the military expenditure undertaken by one of the worlds greatest conquerors, but also because it was the first time that direct contacts were established between Europe & South Asia. Alexanders invasion opend up a new era of mutually benificial trade and cultural exchanges between the two regions,more than 2,000 miles apart.

The fairly intense interaction between ancient South Asia and Greece,which commenced with the invasion of invasion of Alexander in fourth century BC, continued for almost seven centuries till the middle of 5th century AD. After Alexander it was the Seleucid and Bactrian Greeks settled in West and Central Asia,who continued to interact from across the borders,before the Bactrian/Indus Greeks conquered Gandhara and Punjab, Ancient Pakistan in the begining of 1st century BC.The Indus Greeks were succeeded by the philhellenic Scythian,Parthians and Kushans,who continued to rule Ancient Pakistan,till the middle of 5th century AD


Taxila Museum, Pakistan. Headbusts from Bactrian Greek period found in ancient Bactrian Greek city of Taxila. I think it would safe to say they bear strong Hellenic influence.



Taxila ruins, Pakistan.



Map tracing the approx. route of Alexander the Great from Greece to present day Pakistan being the eastern limit of his conquest before he turned back.
First let me be clear, Taxila(Real name: Takshashila, तक्षशिला ) was not a Hellenic city, the city have existed before Alexander's invasion, it was the great centre of Hindu and later Buddhist learning and ancient Indian knowledge. Chanakya who was a student and later a professor here groomed Chandragupta here to protect India falling to Greeks. Moreover, Takshashila was named after Taksha(Takshashila means Pillar of Taksha), the nephew of Hindu God Rama, Pushakalvati(modern Charsadda) was named after Pushkala the other nephew of Hindu God Rama.

Moreover, Hellenic period is just a small part of the history of Gandhara, Gandhara in ancient Indian text is mentioned as the northernmost territory of our Bharatavarsha(India). It has a history since Vedic period to until fall of Gandhara to Ghaznavi in 11th century.

But anyway, I was interested to what happened to Greeks(Yavanas) left behind by Alexander lived under Mauryan rule and how come they became a dominant political force just after the fall of Mauryans.

Last edited by Devdas; May 18th, 2015 at 01:46 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 01:30 AM   #27
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Yes well now Pakistanis want to claim that the land historically was Greek, Parthian, Scythian, Central Asian and Arab in descent but no influence from the Indic civilizations at all. Maybe all modern day Pakistanis are descendents of Indo Greeks. Doesnt matter who lived and ruled that part for most of its history before the 10th century. This foreign component was not even enough to survive on its own even in that era. All the groups including the Greeks assimilated and intermarried. There were no such groups during the 10th century during the invasions.

Last edited by greatstreetwarrior; May 18th, 2015 at 01:36 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 01:43 AM   #28

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Yes well now Pakistanis want to claim that the land historically was Greek, Parthian, Scythian, Central Asian and Arab in descent but no influence from the Indic civilizations at all. Maybe all modern day Pakistanis are descendents of Indo Greeks. Doesnt matter who lived and ruled that part for most of its history before the 10th century. This foreign component was not even enough to survive on its own even in that era. All the groups including the Greeks assimilated and intermarried. There were no such groups during the 10th century during the invasions.
He is trying to take pride in being invaded by Greeks. Seems he is forgetting how Greeks under Alexander massacred the natives in Sagala(modern Sialkot Capital of Madra) and ancient Multan(don't know the ancient names). In Sagala the river water turned to red after Greeks massacred the native soldiers and thrown them into the river.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 03:01 AM   #29
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He is trying to take pride in being invaded by Greeks. Seems he is forgetting how Greeks under Alexander massacred the natives in Sagala(modern Sialkot Capital of Madra) and ancient Multan(don't know the ancient names). In Sagala the river water turned to red after Greeks massacred the native soldiers and thrown them into the river.
I understand the point.
But historical revisionism without any basis in logic or fact is intolerable. This is akin to myth making.Its like the Yiddish speaking Jews adopting Hitler as their hero because they lived in the same place.

Last edited by greatstreetwarrior; May 18th, 2015 at 03:03 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 03:23 AM   #30
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He stated what was obvious Greek influence was mainly limited to northwestern Pakistan Both Greek captives and invaders mainly lived in Bactria . Most of the present day arora khatris lived in northwestern part of this continent and moved to inner parts of India only after partition.
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