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Old May 18th, 2015, 06:13 AM   #41

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Yes Khatri is just apabhramsh but khatris adopted this via sanskritization as most khatri /aroras are basically traders like Banias and same was observed by Risley ,Rose and others in colonial period.
Foreign origin rulers were too considered as Kshatriyas when they got assimilated into Vedic culture.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 10:42 AM   #42
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I gave facts. It is you guy's who are spining myths to the point where your drowning yourself in them. A tiny part of what is now Pakistan was impacted by Greeks and here you are spining 5 pages of myth and trite.

If the effect of the Greeks is nominal in Pakistan it is next to nothing in continental India. All we have left is the ruins of Taxila and the surrounding areas. As regards people gods know which part of India you people are from but chances you have never been to Taxila area and never will.

I come from this area and I know what the local people look like. You people in India seem have this lust to look at past history of our land and our people but at the same time deny our existance or if you do regard us as from migrants from Mars. Bizzare ..
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Old May 18th, 2015, 11:30 AM   #43

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I gave facts. It is you guy's who are spining myths to the point where your drowning yourself in them. A tiny part of what is now Pakistan was impacted by Greeks and here you are spining 5 pages of myth and trite.

If the effect of the Greeks is nominal in Pakistan it is next to nothing in continental India. All we have left is the ruins of Taxila and the surrounding areas. As regards people gods know which part of India you people are from but chances you have never been to Taxila area and never will.

I come from this area and I know what the local people look like. You people in India seem have this lust to look at past history of our land and our people but at the same time deny our existance or if you do regard us as from migrants from Mars. Bizzare ..
May I know what you referring to? Did I tell you Gandhara has historically been regarded as the northernmost territory of our Bharatavarsha irrespective of it was ruled by handful of foreign elites or Ghaznavi wiped out the Hindus from there and the land being repopulated by Pashtuns. And ancient history of Bharat is from Kabul river to Kaveri river and Indus to Brahmaputra river. Its the part of our culture, we have sung it in our epics and all of our ancient Sanskrit literature mentions the same. Now, why you think some random tom dick and harry who have already disowned all of their culture prior to first Pakistani Muhammad Bin Qasim who first appeared in history in 711AD and then lecture us to disow our own history of historical Bharatavarsha. Its like saying Greeks don't have any claim on history of Anatolia, Ionia or Pondus because that's the part of Turkey now.

Last edited by Devdas; May 18th, 2015 at 12:06 PM.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 11:48 AM   #44
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Moreover, Indo-Greeks were small in number and they were later destroyed by Indo-Scythians.
This is not correct (but if you have some source for that, please share it with us)
The main view is that the indo-greek communities continued to exist until they were naturally/gradually absorbed by the local population.

Their numbers were not only these of greek-Greeks, we are dealing with a hellenistic society, that is there were many hellenised others with them. Hellenism had an appeal, and there was no need for religious conversion too, they practised syncretism.
This process was seen elsewhere too, Black Sea, Israel, Egypt, Anatolia, etc (in Black Sea we have a Scythian ruler that at nights secretely lives 2nd live as Greek inside a city, until his fellowmen find it out and kill him for betrayal, Maccabean rebelion starts as a conservative reaction against massive hellenisations of Jews).
In generall, the greek speaking orient surfaces from this process, that was the basis for Eastern Roman Empire later.
Hellenism was like americanism of today, many hate them but everydoby watches holywood movies, listens to their music, follows their trends, etc. Most of people wanted to stroll the streets of a greek city, visit their agoras, go to gym, watch a comedy or tragedy, buy some work of their art, wear like them, speak like them. Again, the ancient Greeks were not just another barbarian raider, they had style and charm.
But that was not one-way thing. It is evident that the Greeks made effort to come closer to the locals, by adopting double script on the coins and becoming patrons of Buddhism. It is speculated that they tried to use Buddhism just as the Roman Emperors used Christianity in order to homogenise their empire.
Anyway, the Indo-Greeks soon became almost totally isolated from the rest of the hellenistic world, and after a few centuries faded away.


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I want to know what happened to Greeks who left behind in India and Bactria after Seleucus Nikator was defeated by Chandragupta Maurya in 305BC taking the large part of Eastern Hellenic Empire into Maurya Empire. How they lived under Maurya Empire and how they resurged after the fall of Mauryan Empire in 185BC to form various Indo-Greek Kingdoms across North-West.
Seleucus I came to an understanding with Chandragupta, this included epigamia (marriage relationship) meaning that either Chandragupta's and Seleucus families we tied up with a dynastic marriage or that numerous marriages were ordered between Greeks and Indians, so as to seal the truce. Also, gifts were exchanged, reportedly Chandragupta gave 500 war elephants to Seleucus (that was huge gift, the cost of 500 war elephants at that time was astronomical).
It is believed that the epigamy was about Seleucus giving his daughter hand to Chandragupta, hence the 500 elephants. It kinda makes sense, since it is not recorded that Seleucus gave any important gift back, and as it seems he lost battles. The other explanation is if Chandragupta had difficult time winning, and was just happy to to end the war.

Anyway, these were the eastern satrapies of Alexander and the greatest part of them was lost (Bactria seems to have remained in greek hands):

Click the image to open in full size.

The two monarchs seem to have had respect for one another. Seleucus would appoint consecutively embassadors to Mauryan court, and reportedly he would receive periodically gifts (according to Deipnosophistes one time they sent him aphrodisiacs, kinda like ancient viagra )

Ashoka too maintained good relations with the Seleucids (even Ptolemaic embassies to the Mauryas are recorder).

So, one would expect that the Greeks of the former easten Satrapies fared pretty good. Which they did.


Now, coming to the question, how did the Greeks came back to india. Here is the greatest Maurya extend under Ashoka:

Click the image to open in full size.


After Ashoka it is recorded a steady decline of the Mauryas. Accordingly one would expect their army to shrink and generally their ability to project power in the periphery of their empire.



In the eastern-most of Seleucid Empire, Bactria, ruled Euthydemus I (around 230 BC)

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.


Due to the riches of the area and the distance from the Seleucid seat of power, Euthydemus had autonomistic tendencies, which forced the seleucid king Antiochus III to make a military expendition in order to subdue him.


Click the image to open in full size.



Euthydemus lost the battles, but managed to hold a 3-year siege in Bactra. Antiochus got bored waiting, and deja-vu!, he offered Euthydemus his daughter as wife and signed with him a treaty recognising him as autonomous ruler of the area.



Euthydemus' son, Demetrius I, around 180 BC he invaded India.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.


Remember, the Mauryans already in steep decline, were overthrown and the Sungas came into play. The Greco-Bactrians were allies of the Mauryans, and the speculation is that either used this as pretext to invade, or they did it to protect the Greeks on Indus Valley from the new dynasty which apparently was not very friendly.



Click the image to open in full size.


Exact dating is problematic, but it seems that the conquest was fast, because Demetrius I seems to die around the same date with the invasion. The expendition has penetrated deep in India, but there are no evidence suggesting that Greeks tried to consolidate their gains, it wouldn't have any meaning most probably, they would be like a drop in an ocean of Indians.

A major source of information about the Indo-Greek rulers are their coins. They are found in astonishingly great number all over the region, even deeper and more south in india. It is a proof that their economy thrived.

So, more or less, thats how it happened.



Later, around 130 BC the Greco-Bactrian kingdom is overrun by Scythians and Yuezhi, something that made many Greeks seek refuge across Hindu Kush in India, thus increasing the Indo-Greek population.




The last Indo-Greek ruler(s) according to numismatic evidence are Strato II and III (father and son ruling together, just like decades earlier mother and son did - Agathokleia and Strato I), with some place the end of his around 50 BC, other around 10 AD. There are also some mentions in local script of another ruler named Theodamas, he could be someone ruling proper after Strato II, or just some local governor in the name of some new king.

Last edited by Diogenis; May 18th, 2015 at 01:02 PM.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 02:50 AM   #45

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I gave facts. It is you guy's who are spining myths to the point where your drowning yourself in them. A tiny part of what is now Pakistan was impacted by Greeks and here you are spining 5 pages of myth and trite.

If the effect of the Greeks is nominal in Pakistan it is next to nothing in continental India. All we have left is the ruins of Taxila and the surrounding areas. As regards people gods know which part of India you people are from but chances you have never been to Taxila area and never will.

I come from this area and I know what the local people look like. You people in India seem have this lust to look at past history of our land and our people but at the same time deny our existance or if you do regard us as from migrants from Mars. Bizzare ..
You should file a petition among renowned world historians to rename them as Pako-Greeks.
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Old May 21st, 2015, 01:28 AM   #46
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You should file a petition among renowned world historians to rename them as Pako-Greeks.
You should not mock him so much Devdas. His inferiority/superiorty complex is well represented in almost all Asian countries .so many Chinese ,Indians , Koreans ,Japanese and specially pakistanis are masters of self delusion .
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Old May 21st, 2015, 01:55 AM   #47
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@Diogenis

where in some of the areas you mention the Greeks was present starting in some cases one millenia before Alexander the Great, where it gives also a big presence of Greeks with greek ancestry background specially in Anatoliacenturies before Alexander. Witht he Diadochs and the hellenistic time the greek presence from new waves, this time mostly of migrations from the mainland but also some hellenistic type clerouchs, military colonies and foundations or deportations in combination with the so called hellenisation will strong again the greek presence and influence in Anatolia, this time also more in the inland.

About the Greeks in Bactria I have post again something from an ancient source which show that the presence of an important population with greek ancestry was excisting. I think its important to can hellenise or semi hellenise such a mass of different people and cultures and dont forget cause the ancient Greeks was included from so many tribes and city states with colonies and metropolis in a territory of partly presence which came in touch with all known continents of that time they was numerous back than. Somebody will loss the point if he take the relations of population from Greeks today to compare. I believe they was a strong minority in potential and numbers in India and Bactria whre in places like Anatolia they became with the time at least within the major populations of the area. Of course massiv men power and massiv populations was never the way that Greeks manage to win or dominate but they was numerous back than in compare to today and the relations of the other populations.

Here what writes Strabo about the number of Greeks:

"The Greeks who caused Bactria to revolt grew so powerful on account of the fertility of the country that they became masters, not only of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariana"]Ariana[/ame], but also of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India"]India[/ame], as [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus_of_Artemita"]Apollodorus of Artemita[/ame] says: and more tribes were subdued by them than by Alexander... Their cities were [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactra"]Bactra[/ame] (also called Zariaspa, through which flows a river bearing the same name and emptying into the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus"]Oxus[/ame]), and Darapsa, and several others. Among these was [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucratideia"]Eucratidia[/ame], which was named after its ruler." (Strabo, XI.XI.I[37])

They was settled there Greeks not only by Alexander but also from the Diadochs and some other waves of migrations also outside of the cities in rural land forming klerouche and military colonies.
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Old May 21st, 2015, 06:35 AM   #48
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where in some of the areas you mention the Greeks was present starting in some cases one millenia before Alexander the Great, where it gives also a big presence of Greeks with greek ancestry background specially in Anatoliacenturies before Alexander.
That sounds exaggerated. Do you have some source?


Otherwise, yes, all over the hellenistic world there have been settlers from greek mailand.
But when we refer to India, we are dealing with a region that even in antiquity its population was measured in millions. The Greeks in India were only a tiny fraction of the population even at their peak time.
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Old May 21st, 2015, 06:44 AM   #49
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What for source when I mention Ionia , Aeolia or also the south coast of Anatolia where Greeks was present even before but this place doesnt remain in such a scale traditionally greek than other places. They excist there (in the south coast of Anatolia) some mycenean settlements and a significant greek presence from the 13th century and also before you can easy find something in the internet about.
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Old May 21st, 2015, 09:01 AM   #50
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Sorry, I thought you were talking about India.
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