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Old July 1st, 2015, 10:50 PM   #11

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Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
Yes I know about this date. But in other reports the date has been knocked to 1500BCE. Hence, my confusion what the actual date is.

This topic is too controversial because of its relationships to Hindutva, so it is not getting the attention that it should get.
Welcome, you are here after a long time !
As per traditions and mythology, Yudhishthira was crowned as an Emperor after the Mahabharat war and Lord Krishna ended his avatar some 38 years afterwards. Many researchers of the Mahabharat place the crowning of Yudhishthira around 3139 B.C.E. and the end of the avatar of Lord Krishna around 3101 B.C.E. That will place the construction of Dwaraka at about 50 years before 3101 B.C.E. say around 3151B.C.E.
The traditional start of the Kaliyuga is around the end of Lord Krishna's avatar and many of our mythological references around the start of the Christian era say that the Kaliyuga started 3000 years ago.
So, Dwaraka comes to about 5000 years old and not as far back as 9500 years ago.

Last edited by rvsakhadeo; July 1st, 2015 at 10:53 PM.
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Old July 1st, 2015, 10:58 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Onkar Karambay View Post
Well the piece of wood found by NIOT in the site dates back to an age of 9500 years old. So it's at least 7500 BC old.. The melting of the ice caps and the end of the ice age about 8000-10000 years ago caused sea water rise of nearly 400 feet which swallowed the old Dwarka city. This tallies with the account of Mahabharata as per which after Krishna died, Dwarka got submerged.
You are preaching to the converted here. To find a submerged city at exactly the same location and in the same time frame matching the same description as we find in the Bhagvatam is strong proof for me.

But from all the data that I can currently access it is inconclusive. Can you compile all the archaeological data, artefacts that have been found so far?

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Dwarka is certainly older than supposed period of Aryan invasion 1500BC.
I don't believe in AIT and AMT already. For me the Saraswati alone is enough to refute them. But we have had several dozens of threads on this topic, so I don't want to get into the same debate on it here.

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Anyway what's Hindurva? And how the topic becomes controversial.
Hindutva basically means Hindu nationalism and in India it is a controversial philosophy. Anything that can contribute to the Hindu nationalist cause is seen with suspicion, and obviously proof of Krishna historical existence is a major Hindu nationalist plank, this is why scholars will not want to touch it.
Honestly, a finding like this anywhere else in the world, would have had an international army of scholars working on it and the government would have funded several millions, but unfortunately that is not the case here.

The problem in India is there is too much political inertia.
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Old July 1st, 2015, 11:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by rvsakhadeo View Post
Welcome, you are here after a long time !
As per traditions and mythology, Yudhishthira was crowned as an Emperor after the Mahabharat war and Lord Krishna ended his avatar some 38 years afterwards. Many researchers of the Mahabharat place the crowning of Yudhishthira around 3139 B.C.E. and the end of the avatar of Lord Krishna around 3101 B.C.E. That will place the construction of Dwaraka at about 50 years before 3101 B.C.E. say around 3151B.C.E.
The traditional start of the Kaliyuga is around the end of Lord Krishna's avatar and many of our mythological references around the start of the Christian era say that the Kaliyuga started 3000 years ago.
So, Dwaraka comes to about 5000 years old and not as far back as 9500 years ago.
I use to believe this traditional date as being the start of the Kaliyuga. But now I am not so sure. Is it true this date only appears in Aryabhattas work and since him it has been repeated by others -- or do we find older sources that corroborate this date?
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Old July 1st, 2015, 11:37 PM   #14

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Is the evidence (whatever it is) of Krishna existence at the same time the evidence of the Christian God's nonexistence? And vice versa?
We Hindus do not regard Lord Krishna or Lord Rama as God but as incarnations of God. They are not God---I repeat---but human incarnations and hence to that extent with severe limitations on their characteristics. God cannot be conceived properly let alone be visualised and be described. Jesus is also regarded by Hindus as an incarnation of God. Even The Islamic teachings regard Jesus as a prophet and not God.
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 12:50 AM   #15
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Jesus is also regarded by Hindus as an incarnation of God. Even The Islamic teachings regard Jesus as a prophet and not God.
Technically not true. If you consider Jesus is unknown to the Hindu world until the modern age when Christian missionaries came to India and some Hindus gurus assimilated Jesus into the Hindu universe. Most Hindus do not consider Jesus one of the incarnations or worship Jesus.

If we look at the "official" lists in the Puranas, Jesus obviously is not mentioned as one of the incarnations of Vishnu.

However, Jesus could be an incarnation insofar as anybody who is one with Krishna consciousness can be. Krishna consciousness can be manifest in several people at the same time. Some people mistakenly think of incarnations to be in linear time i.e., one followed by another. However, some of Vishnu's incarnations appear at the same time such as Pashuram and Rama. Generally, the word "avatara" is given to any holy, saintly or divine person. Even in popular usage in India, you often hear, such and such is an avatar of xyz.

This is because Hinduism is an impersonal "religion", the personality or the body matters little, what matters is the same divine essence that is within every body. There is this appreciation in Hinduism that even the most rotten person has the essence of the divine within them, and it is just a question of making that manifest to them. Such as how it was made manifest to Valmiki.

Last edited by Joshua A; July 2nd, 2015 at 12:54 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 12:56 AM   #16
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PS: The existence of the settlement doesn't "prove" the existence of Krishna, any more than the existence of Thebes proves that Heracles existed or the existence of Rome proves that Aeneas was real individual.
But all archaeological findings match with descriptions given by MAHABHARATA. I think this is more than enough. A conch seal is one important clue of his existence.

The Harivamsa mentions the seal bearing the motif of a 3-headed animal representing the bull, unicorn and goat. The Harivamsa says that every citizen of Dwaraka had to carry a mudra as a mark of identifications as ordered by Lord Krishna. If not this, what would you expect to prove any historical man's identity which is as old as 5000 years old? Would you question in the same way if the king of Dwarka was any human being who is not mentioned in scriptures as god?

Thank You.

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Old July 2nd, 2015, 01:04 AM   #17

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Technically not true. If you consider Jesus is unknown to the Hindu world until the modern age when Christian missionaries came to India and some Hindus gurus assimilated Jesus into the Hindu universe. Most Hindus do not consider Jesus one of the incarnations or worship Jesus.

If we look at the "official" lists in the Puranas, Jesus obviously is not mentioned as one of the incarnations of Vishnu.

However, Jesus could be an incarnation insofar as anybody who is one with Krishna consciousness can be. Krishna consciousness can be manifest in several people at the same time. Some people mistakenly think of incarnations to be in linear time i.e., one followed by another. However, some of Vishnu's incarnations appear at the same time such as Pashuram and Rama. Generally, the word "avatara" is given to any holy, saintly or divine person. Even in popular usage in India, you often hear, such and such is an avatar of xyz.

This is because Hinduism is an impersonal "religion", the personality or the body matters little, what matters is the same divine essence that is within every body. There is this appreciation in Hinduism that even the most rotten person has the essence of the divine within them, and it is just a question of making that manifest to them. Such as how it was made manifest to Valmiki.
True. I did not mean to say that Hindus right from old days viewed Jesus as an incarnation. It is more of a modern view. Let us say in conversation with like minded people, this is how we described Jesus.

Last edited by rvsakhadeo; July 2nd, 2015 at 01:06 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 01:07 AM   #18
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We Hindus do not regard Lord Krishna or Lord Rama as God but as incarnations of God. They are not God---I repeat--
This is not true ! I think Lord krishna and Rama are considered incarnations of Lord Vishnu. And certainly they are god. And about Jesus he is not found in hindu thoughts.
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 01:10 AM   #19
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True. I did not mean say that Hindus right from old days viewed Jesus as an incarnation. It is more of a modern view.
Yes, popularized by modern gurus like Yogananda Paramhansa, who was trying to win over the Christians. And he succeeded to a large extent:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVKnf2Yf-3Y&list=PLgkLRufLloNqTT0ahQBAdhZoHyKSmzCZ-[/ame]
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 01:17 AM   #20
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I like this one especially, it starts with "In India" lol

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZIPoSwmSIA&list=PLgkLRufLloNqTT0ahQBAdhZo HyKSmzCZ-&index=12[/ame]
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