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Old August 16th, 2015, 12:40 PM   #1
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Indus Valley Civilization and Thirukkural ?


Is there a connection between the Indus Valley Civilization and Thirukkural ?

Reading through the Thirukkural, I noticed the emphasis it places on an egalitarian society, with a simple construct as a god and a wise king being the first among the commoners of a nation, rather than a "deity in a human form".

These ideas seem to be related with the archaeological evidence present in the Indus Valley cities. Note, the lack of statues of gods and kings and who can dispute the utilitarian planning of the cities.

I would like to know, what you guys think of this possible connection. I am not implying, straightaway, that because of this conjecture the civilization is Dravidian, in any form, but rather have the ideas of the civilization taken some form in the Kural, centuries later.

I am also not posing this query for it to become a flame bait, but rather on learning from the answers, myself.
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Old August 16th, 2015, 02:33 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by RajeevM View Post
Is there a connection between the Indus Valley Civilization and Thirukkural ?

Reading through the Thirukkural, I noticed the emphasis it places on an egalitarian society, with a simple construct as a god and a wise king being the first among the commoners of a nation, rather than a "deity in a human form".

These ideas seem to be related with the archaeological evidence present in the Indus Valley cities. Note, the lack of statues of gods and kings and who can dispute the utilitarian planning of the cities.

I would like to know, what you guys think of this possible connection. I am not implying, straightaway, that because of this conjecture the civilization is Dravidian, in any form, but rather have the ideas of the civilization taken some form in the Kural, centuries later.

I am also not posing this query for it to become a flame bait, but rather on learning from the answers, myself.
Why not? More the merrier. I expect any day the Yakutsk to ask if there is any connection with IVC culture based on "Shamanism".

Click the image to open in full size.

We have connections with Uzbekistan ( Shortugai ) Teye Yahya ( Iran) Shahr Shokhta ( Iran ) Munidgak ( Afghanistan ) so IVC was spread well beyond present day Pakistan.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by PaKeeza; August 16th, 2015 at 02:38 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2015, 03:56 PM   #3
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Why not? More the merrier. I expect any day the Yakutsk to ask if there is any connection with IVC culture based on "Shamanism".
How inane? tent dwellers are quite far from constructing complex societies through brick and mortar. If you need to go through the thirukural here is the link Thirukural in Tamil, English and Transliteration. I think you may be able to find out about the sangam age by yourself, and of course don't forget the prevalence of scholarship regarding a Indo Dravidian hypothesis to the Indus question.
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Old August 16th, 2015, 05:22 PM   #4
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How inane? tent dwellers are quite far from constructing complex societies through brick and mortar. If you need to go through the thirukural here is the link Thirukural in Tamil, English and Transliteration. I think you may be able to find out about the sangam age by yourself, and of course don't forget the prevalence of scholarship regarding a Indo Dravidian hypothesis to the Indus question.
If there were 100 of millions of Yakutsk all in need of finding something to fortify their history with some pearls from dawn of time trust me there would be "Yakutsk hypothesis". Of course they would have to find a "host" and the nearest one would suffice.

Here is Prof. Ahmad Dani who unlike many has actually spent lifetime excavating Harappan sites in Pakistan. His view is the IVC has Central Asian connections to places like Shahr Sokhta in Iran, Mundigak in Afghanistan, Shortigai in Afghan/Uzbekistan, Mehr Garh in Pakistan. His suggestion is this area was the where pre Indus cultures developed and then moved east into Indus leading to maturing of Harappa, Mohenjo Daro etc.

This is quite contrary to the Dravidian theory.

Ahmad Hassan Dani Interview Contents

Last edited by PaKeeza; August 16th, 2015 at 05:25 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #5

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Originally Posted by PaKeeza View Post
If there were 100 of millions of Yakutsk all in need of finding something to fortify their history with some pearls from dawn of time trust me there would be "Yakutsk hypothesis". Of course they would have to find a "host" and the nearest one would suffice.

Here is Prof. Ahmad Dani who unlike many has actually spent lifetime excavating Harappan sites in Pakistan. His view is the IVC has Central Asian connections to places like Shahr Sokhta in Iran, Mundigak in Afghanistan, Shortigai in Afghan/Uzbekistan, Mehr Garh in Pakistan. His suggestion is this area was the where pre Indus cultures developed and then moved east into Indus leading to maturing of Harappa, Mohenjo Daro etc.

This is quite contrary to the Dravidian theory.

Ahmad Hassan Dani Interview Contents
Err, you are both actually, incorrect.
The problem with the IVC is also that to be honest, Pakistan has politicized the issues of its archeology (and so has India).
It is neither a Dravidian or a central Asian origin. Indus valley civilization rose in two locus waves, the main one from Bhirrana region, which is very close to the saraswati river itself and the smaller, Mehrgarh region.
That Bhirrana is the main originating locus of the IVC is supported by the fact that:
a) it is older than the earliest Mehrgarh remains by half a millennia
b) it displays all the phases of IVC wares as well as the proto-IVC wares
c) one of the largest sites in Harappan sites is Rakhigarhi and it shows similar pre-harappan wares. Rakhigarhi is actually quite stunning in its size, not only is it actually bigger than Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, its also much older.

In anycase, I do agree that IVC starts showing some latter links with central Asia as it expands outwards ( the site of Shortugai on the north side of Hindu Kush was a late IVC period one, indicating expansion to this region, not origination. The Helmand valley early farming sites also show increasing IVC trade goods and items in the mature Harappan phase).
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Old August 17th, 2015, 02:30 AM   #6
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Is there a connection between the Indus Valley Civilization and Thirukkural ?

Reading through the Thirukkural, I noticed the emphasis it places on an egalitarian society, with a simple construct as a god and a wise king being the first among the commoners of a nation, rather than a "deity in a human form".

These ideas seem to be related with the archaeological evidence present in the Indus Valley cities. Note, the lack of statues of gods and kings and who can dispute the utilitarian planning of the cities.

I would like to know, what you guys think of this possible connection. I am not implying, straightaway, that because of this conjecture the civilization is Dravidian, in any form, but rather have the ideas of the civilization taken some form in the Kural, centuries later.

I am also not posing this query for it to become a flame bait, but rather on learning from the answers, myself.
Thirukkural is less a historical account and more of guidelines or lessons (A way of life may be?). So it would be difficult to connect it to IVC.
Similar to how Vedic texts are silent on IVC, even Thirukkural does not mention anything related to IVC. Thirukkural might most probably been a later creation. The lack of Gods in Thirukkural and IVC is most probably a coincidence and in any case a weak argument to support the case.

Help me here please, do we have way of giving any definite timeline to Thirukural?
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Old August 17th, 2015, 02:55 AM   #7
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Thirukkural is less a historical account and more of guidelines or lessons (A way of life may be?). So it would be difficult to connect it to IVC.
Similar to how Vedic texts are silent on IVC, even Thirukkural does not mention anything related to IVC. Thirukkural might most probably been a later creation. The lack of Gods in Thirukkural and IVC is most probably a coincidence and in any case a weak argument to support the case.

Help me here please, do we have way of giving any definite timeline to Thirukural?
Thirukural( Thiru means Holy or devine , Krual mreans Voice= Holy or devine voice) was written by Thiurvalluvar a Tamil poet who lived in A.D middle Century.

Out of 1330 Kurals ,the very first poem shows his belief in One God. To be very honest Thirukural has no way associated with IVC because it was written by much later period ,but,it condemn the vedic practises of animal sacrifice. IVC is the period of Dravidian worship(ancestoral and kandhu worship) where as Thirukural is based on Monotheism
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Old August 17th, 2015, 04:32 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RajeevM View Post
Is there a connection between the Indus Valley Civilization and Thirukkural ?

Reading through the Thirukkural, I noticed the emphasis it places on an egalitarian society, with a simple construct as a god and a wise king being the first among the commoners of a nation, rather than a "deity in a human form".

These ideas seem to be related with the archaeological evidence present in the Indus Valley cities. Note, the lack of statues of gods and kings and who can dispute the utilitarian planning of the cities.

I would like to know, what you guys think of this possible connection. I am not implying, straightaway, that because of this conjecture the civilization is Dravidian, in any form, but rather have the ideas of the civilization taken some form in the Kural, centuries later.

I am also not posing this query for it to become a flame bait, but rather on learning from the answers, myself.
There is no direct link but the culture of IVC was retained in later religious and cultural of Hindu and have passed to South India with the spread of Vedic whole of India from the land of the 7 rivers (aka Sapta Sindhu).
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Old August 17th, 2015, 06:16 AM   #9
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I believe there is indirect connection.
Few historians believe Indus script which is pictorial form is equivalent to brahmi script in charectorial form

Brahmi script belongs to jain ppl so jain should have existed around later ivc period or time period immediately after ivc.

It should be noted thirukural or thiruvallur is not the real name which are coined more recently around 13th century.

Jainism was major religion in tamilnadu during 300bce -300ce and thiruvallur was jain and first kural mentions jain thirthankara adinath name. Also jain saint kundakunda is assumed to have written thirukural and in 13th century parimelalgar translated thirukural from its original Tamil brahmi script to Tamil language.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 06:19 AM   #10
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To the OP. Quote me one text in the Thirukural which refers to IVC. Even a SENTENCE ON IVC wud do. Dont state random things like belief in one God, opposition to idols etc. These could be found even in Ancient Israel. Does that mean Tamils were Jews before Yeshu (in your lingo, converted them?

Unmai I think me, tornado and jinnit have repeatedly told you to show corraborative and substantive historical proof for random statements. The modern day Tamils are proud descendents of all Indic cultures including IVC and Vedic. No Evangelicals can hijack and steal their cultural roots and heritage. Tamils are children of Shiva, Muruga and Vinayakar (metaphorically), all of whom are Hindu/Indic deities worshipped in other parts of India. There is no pre Hindu history of Tamils. Valluvar was a philosopher poet of sorts and he had not such beliefs as you imply. He was not a historian. No civilization shows memory for IVC era including the Tamils especially as late as Valluvar's era. I am not even sure he can be accepted as a Jain considering some contrary evidence mentioned recently in a few posts in historum.

Tamils were pious Hindus (with some strong Jain and fewer Buddhist presence). They idolized Hinduism more even during the peak of heterodox sects in North India. This is why poet after poets bad mouths the heterodox supporting Kalambara era as an integennum and dark age of Tamils. They idolized Pallavas, Cholas, Pandyas and Cheras all of whom had strong Hindu roots.

Last edited by greatstreetwarrior; August 17th, 2015 at 06:25 AM.
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