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Old September 16th, 2015, 02:03 PM   #11
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Evidence suggests that it is the other way around. Aryans were the barbarians. Cultural (and religious) roots of India are very much Dravidian, and also that of more ancient aboriginal peoples. Aryans just added an overlay, especially in regards to Hindu religion. Also, speaking an Indo-Aryan language doesn't make one an Aryan.
The Hindu religion though is largely Aryan with Dravidian concepts absorbed over a period of time into the larger religion. While there are definite contributions by Dravidians the religion from the beginning to now has largely been led by Aryans. Example: while Kannan is said to be Dravidian he does not take precedence and he is associated with Krishna and Krishna takes precedence. Also Kannan is relatively unknown elsewhere. Almost all epics are also centered around the North.
Siva according to me seems to be the only major Dravidian God with Pan Indian following (this claim of mine though is fiercely contessted with logical points though). Again he has also been assigned to be one of the Rudras.

Last edited by kamald; September 16th, 2015 at 02:18 PM.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 02:14 PM   #12
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Proto-Dravidian Life

I will post the conclusions first so that it kindles some interest, and later state why and how this was derived. Have used a few root words in brackets here and there to give a sense of how this comes about while the details of each will be described in subsequent posts.

The outline of Proto-Dravidian culture gives a glimpse of a highly civilized people, who lived in towns in tiled or terraced (met-ay) houses, with agriculture as the main occupation. There were kings and chiefs. They had forts (Kott-ay) and fortresses surrounded by deep moats (Akaz-ttay) filled with water. They received different kinds of taxes (Kappam)and tributes. There were fights, wars (por) with armies arrayed (ani) in battle fields. They had large territorial units (Natu) and provinces (Ur)They drew water from wells, tanks and lakes, and knew drainage. They also carried trade by boat in the sea. However, there is no indication of the original home of these people. At least, it is certain that they do not have terms for flora and fauna not found in the India Subcontinent. It is significant that Proto-Dravidians have not 'retained' any expressions for snow and ice and they do not have a name for the lion, rhino and the camel. In view of this it would be safe to consider the speakers of PD as native to India. This does not rule out the PD to be originators of the Harappan Civilization.

The following is based on lexical items borrowed into early sanskrt (Disproving this does not negate the previous paragraph - both are independent)
In the 3rd millenium they must have been scatterred all over the subcontinent, even as far as Afganistan where they must have come into contact with early Rgvedic Aryans. Ater that some groups moved to the peripheri of the Indo-Gangetic plains with the expansion of the Aryans, several other groups must have been assimilated into the Aryan Society. The major structural changes in middle or modern Indic suggest a Dravidian substratum over 3 Millenia. There have been Dravidian lexical items borrowed into Sanskrts, Prakrits during the middle indic period but most of these refer to concepts native to Dravidian. Mainly items of need-based borrowing. However, the grammatical changes which had swept through Indo-Aryan were far-reaching, manly, because of transplanting the Dravidian structure onto Indo-Aryan

http://www.tamilnavarasam.in/books/o..._languages.pdf
The word "NaTu" (or "NaDu") certainly looks Dravidian, and it seems that Dravidians certainly had organization. The word Kottay/Kote has parallel in Sanskrit (Kota), but I am not sure what is the direction of borrowing.

Regarding Kappam (tribute/tax), I am not sure of the origins as Sanskrit has Kara. It could well be Karapam in Dravidian that changes to Kappam. The word "Koyil" is of interest to me. There is no equivalent word in Kannada that I am aware of.

A very interesting thread indeed!
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Old September 16th, 2015, 02:23 PM   #13
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The Hindu religion though is largely Aryan with Dravidian concepts absorbed over a period of time into the larger religion. While there are definite contributions by Dravidians the religion from the beginning to now has largely been led by Aryans. Example: while Kannan is said to be Dravidian he does not take precedence and he is associated with Krishna and Krishna takes precedence. Also Kannan is relatively unknown elsewhere. Almost all epics are also centered around the North.
Siva according to me seems to be the only major Dravidian God with Pan Indian following (this claim of mine though is fiercely contessted with logical points though). Again he has also been assigned to be one of the Rudras.
@Kamald, in another thread, we had a very lengthy discussion on the origin of Shiva. Going by the antiquity of evidences and even the meaning of the word, and its application to the God in question, it is undoubtedly Sanskrit (more Vedic) in origin. It is fine if you do not agree.

Coming to the word Kannan, what is the meaning of it in Tamil? We have a word "Kannu" in kannada that means eyes. Remember, the word Krishna changed to "Kanha" in Prakrit. If Kannan means Krishna, it is very likely a Prakrit import.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 07:03 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by kandal View Post
Evidence suggests that it is the other way around. Aryans were the barbarians. Cultural (and religious) roots of India are very much Dravidian, and also that of more ancient aboriginal peoples. Aryans just added an overlay, especially in regards to Hindu religion. Also, speaking an Indo-Aryan language doesn't make one an Aryan.
Please name one 'Dravidian' kingdom in early history of India which never utilized the 'Aryan' culture.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 07:21 PM   #15
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@Kamald, in another thread, we had a very lengthy discussion on the origin of Shiva. Going by the antiquity of evidences and even the meaning of the word, and its application to the God in question, it is undoubtedly Sanskrit (more Vedic) in origin. It is fine if you do not agree.

Coming to the word Kannan, what is the meaning of it in Tamil? We have a word "Kannu" in kannada that means eyes. Remember, the word Krishna changed to "Kanha" in Prakrit. If Kannan means Krishna, it is very likely a Prakrit import.

I had already given evidences from Indo-Europeanists like Mallory stating Shiva is a pure Indo-European term.

Anyway,yes,Kannan is probably derived from Kanha.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 07:35 PM   #16

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I see a simple problem in establishing the origins of words. Whether a word is of Dravidian or Sanskrit origin depends on locating its source etymology, yes? But if the word is short and is extremely old, and the meaning is shared across the two Languages (which it would be if we're talking about loan words) then establishing the source of the word would be difficult, since we have no way of knowing which came first. Aatreya mentions Kota for instance. To establish the root source we'd need to determine which root is older. Is there any method to do that?
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Old September 16th, 2015, 07:41 PM   #17

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I see a simple problem in establishing the origins of words. Whether a word is of Dravidian or Sanskrit origin depends on locating its source etymology, yes? But if the word is short and is extremely old, and the meaning is shared across the two Languages (which it would be if we're talking about loan words) then establishing the source of the word would be difficult, since we have no way of knowing which came first. Aatreya mentions Kota for instance. To establish the root source we'd need to determine which root is older. Is there any method to do that?
I am no expert, but couldn't you check if other Indo-European languages have similar words in order to establish Sanskrit origin? For example, the word asva has a cognate in Persian aspa, so we know that asva is of Aryan and not Dravidian origin.

Unfortunately, this cannot be used for Dravidian words because Dravidian languages belong to an isolated language family. There are no languages similar to Dravidian languages anywhere outside the subcontinent, unlike the case with Sanskrit where words like matruh and bhratra have cognates even with English mother and brother.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 07:47 PM   #18

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I am no expert, but couldn't you check if other Indo-European languages have similar words in order to establish Sanskrit origin? For example, the word asva has a cognate in Persian aspa, so we know that asva is of Aryan and not Dravidian origin.

Unfortunately, this cannot be used for Dravidian words because Dravidian languages belong to an isolated language family. There are no languages similar to Dravidian languages anywhere outside the subcontinent, unlike the case with Sanskrit where words like matruh and bhratra have cognates even with English mother and brother.
But there are some universal principles also IIRC. I once read somewhere that the first syllable that children usually pronounce is the "m" sound. So the word becomes associated with mother, regardless of language.

But I'm not disputing your post though. But there are a fair few words which don't have standing parallels in other IE languages, atleast as far as we know currently. It is in such a scenario that we have trouble. For instance, I don't think we can cite the absence of similar words in other languages as proof of its "non-IE" status. Siva for instance. Do any of the other IE languages have Si as a denominator for prosperity and such like? However, the Kota word for house might certainly have IE origins, seeing as how the word is also the root for Cottage.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 08:03 PM   #19
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But there are some universal principles also IIRC. I once read somewhere that the first syllable that children usually pronounce is the "m" sound. So the word becomes associated with mother, regardless of language.

But I'm not disputing your post though. But there are a fair few words which don't have standing parallels in other IE languages, atleast as far as we know currently. It is in such a scenario that we have trouble. For instance, I don't think we can cite the absence of similar words in other languages as proof of its "non-IE" status. Siva for instance. Do any of the other IE languages have Si as a denominator for prosperity and such like? However, the Kota word for house might certainly have IE origins, seeing as how the word is also the root for Cottage.
I am no expert either. In such circumstances proving an origin might be difficult. However, in order to reconstruct Proto-Dravidian it would be enough if parallels are found within the subgroups. Since earliest Tamil written records of Tamil is around first half of BCE, Proto-Dravidian must precede much before. Regarding Kota we find that all South Dravidian languages have it. How ever it is not found in any of the North or Central Dravidian languages. As you point out, absence does not necessarily mean the concept didn't exist. But just to be safe we can only say that kota or knowledge of forts was a later phenomenon possibly in the 2nd or 1st millenia whenever these southern languages spliy as pointed out by Southworth in his work.



Proto-South Dravidian :**kotaḷ-

Meaning :*bastion, bulwark

Tamil :*kottaḷam

Tamil meaning :*bastion

Malayalam :*kottaḷam, kontaḷam

Malayalam meaning :*bulwark, bastion

Kannada :*kottaḷa, kottala

Kannada meaning :*bulwark, bastion

Tulu :*kottaḷa, kottala

Tulu meaning :*bulwark, bastion

This I got from the South Dravidian etymological dictionary. Although Telugu also has a kota meaning fort, it has not been included and is not considered here. Also searches in Telugu etymological dictionary with kota throw up no results. Wonder why.

Last edited by kamald; September 16th, 2015 at 09:13 PM.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 11:59 PM   #20

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Originally Posted by tornada
I see a simple problem in establishing the origins of words. Whether a word is of Dravidian or Sanskrit origin depends on locating its source etymology, yes? But if the word is short and is extremely old, and the meaning is shared across the two Languages (which it would be if we're talking about loan words) then establishing the source of the word would be difficult, since we have no way of knowing which came first. Aatreya mentions Kota for instance. To establish the root source we'd need to determine which root is older. Is there any method to do that?
Agree with you, in this case it is best to assume that both the words have there independent existence in both the language families.

Proto-Dravidian *koṭ- and Proto-Indo-European *kat- may have some remote connection is past but that will be too much speculative.
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