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Old September 17th, 2015, 02:30 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
@Kamald, in another thread, we had a very lengthy discussion on the origin of Shiva. Going by the antiquity of evidences and even the meaning of the word, and its application to the God in question, it is undoubtedly Sanskrit (more Vedic) in origin. It is fine if you do not agree.
Yes Aatreya. We did have good discussion on that. However the fact that Shiva is only an adjective and the root word shi is used to refer multiple gods and not just shiva is troubling me to accept an Aryan origin for Shiva. Sivappu is more in line with characteristics of Siva. Also the other name sambu also has a root in Chembu.

The characteristics of Rudra and Siva being similar, the Vedic and Dravidians did at some point accpet siva also as one of the Rudras, as is the common practice where Dravidian Gods like Muruga, Balaji, Ayyapa have been associated with one of the vedic gods in some form or the other. And phallic worship also found its way too in the north. Let us agree to disagree on this one. Unless there is clinching evidence of either phallic worship or usage of 'Shiva' as a stand alone God in vedic times, the possibility of him being non-vedic in light of more closer etymology in Dravidian seems the possible one.

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Originally Posted by Vajra View Post
I had already given evidences from Indo-Europeanists like Mallory stating Shiva is a pure Indo-European term.
Did they state that it meant the Lord Shiva or the adjective 'Auspicious' or 'kind'. Even if you say this adjective is associated with Shiva why is 'Shi' then used to refer to multiple Gods in Vedas? It is because it was never used as a proper noun and was used only as an adjective.

Quote:
Anyway,yes,Kannan is probably derived from Kanha.
Actually, it is said to be the other way around
P.T Srinivasa Iyengar (Equally well versed in Sanskrt and Dravidian) says this
"The 'Ayar' community in ancient Tamil country had Kannan or Mayon as their God. Kannan in Tamil means Pupil of the eye. Mayon means one who performs tricks."
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...%20god&f=false

Kannan also has clear etymology to mean 'eye' and is from the earliest dravidian spoken because it is found in all subsets o Dravidian from South, Central and North.

Proto-Dravidian : *kaṇ-
Meaning : eye
Proto-South Dravidian: *kaṇ
Proto-Telugu : *kan-
Proto-Kolami-Gadba : *kaṇ
Proto-Gondi-Kui : *kaṇ
Proto-North Dravidian : *qan
Brahui : xan

Sailendra Nath Sen also reiterates the same thing here
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...kannan&f=false

Last edited by kamald; September 17th, 2015 at 02:38 AM.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 02:50 AM   #22

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamald View Post
Yes Aatreya. We did have good discussion on that. However the fact that Shiva is only an adjective and the root word shi is used to refer multiple gods and not just shiva is troubling me to accept an Aryan origin for Shiva. Sivappu is more in line with characteristics of Siva. Also the other name sambu also has a root in Chembu.
You mean to say Siva became Shiva in Indo-Aryan language, but why would Indo-Aryan speaking people change S in SH. But we clearly know how Shashi of Sanskrit became Sasi in Tamil. Shambhu is also used in Northern language, again there is no sound for Bh in Tamil, so its pronounced as Sambu.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 02:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamald View Post
Did they state that it meant the Lord Shiva or the adjective 'Auspicious' or 'kind'. Shi is used to refer to multiple Gods in Vedas.
No,but the term itself has cognates in other IE languages.

Quote:
Actually, it is said to be the other way around
P.T Srinivasa Iyengar (Equally well versed in Sanskrt and Dravidian) says this
"The 'Ayar' community in ancient Tamil country had Kannan or Mayon as their God. Kannan in Tamil means Pupil of the eye. Mayon means one who performs tricks."
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...%20god&f=false

Kannan also has clear etymology to mean 'eye' and is from the earliest dravidian spoken because it is found in all subsets o Dravidian from South, Central and North.

Proto-Dravidian : *kaṇ-
Meaning : eye
Proto-South Dravidian: *kaṇ
Proto-Telugu : *kan-
Proto-Kolami-Gadba : *kaṇ
Proto-Gondi-Kui : *kaṇ
Proto-North Dravidian : *qan
Brahui : xan

Pupil of the eye?What does that even mean? Anyway,I don't think Kannan is mentioned in Sangam texts.Vishnu-Krishna is called as Mayon,Mal,Thirumal etc in the Sangam texts.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 04:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajra View Post
No,but the term itself has cognates in other IE languages.
Yes, the term has cognates. I never disputed that. But it is used as an adjective for many Gods and is not consistent with description of Lord Siva. Why then did 'shi' suddenl6 refer onk6 to Shiva? While the other independent root civappu from Dravidian as explained many times fits well. Plus the fact that Shiva is never used as a proper noun in any early Vedas show the clear possibility of the non-aryan nature of the God.

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Anyway,I don't think Kannan is mentioned in Sangam texts.Vishnu-Krishna is called as Mayon,Mal,Thirumal etc in the Sangam texts.
Yes perhaps and I stand corrected. There was a theory proposed by Srinivas Iyengar but it seems highly speculative
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...%20god&f=false

Kannan as a God is not found in Sangam texts, it is however used only as an epithet in Sangam texts. Something similar to 'Shi' and Siva discussed above. Still my point is about the independent origin of Kannan still holds, as it was suggested kanhaiya was root for this. This is because of the root 'Kan' being the most proto Dravidian word.

Last edited by kamald; September 17th, 2015 at 06:28 AM.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 05:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
Regarding Kappam (tribute/tax), I am not sure of the origins as Sanskrit has Kara. It could well be Karapam in Dravidian that changes to Kappam.
Kappam is again a proto-Dravidian since it is found in both South Dravidian (Tamil,Malayalam, Kannada) and Telugu subgroups. It means tribute and tax.

Proto-Dravidian : *kap-
Proto-South Dravidian : *kap-am
Meaning : tribute
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology
Tamil : kappam
Tamil meaning : tribute
Malayalam : kappam
Malayalam meaning : tribute, taxes
Kannada : kappa, kappu
Kannada meaning : tribute
Tulu : kappa
Tulu meaning : tribute, an offering

Proto-Telugu : *kapp-
Meaning : tribute, tax, subsidy
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology
Telugu : kappamu

There is also another word for tax,
Proto-South Dravidian : *ari
Meaning : tax
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology
Tamil : ari
Tamil meaning : tax, duty
Tamil derivates : appu loan, debt (< Te.)
Kannada : accu
Kannada meaning : to pay unjustly, as rent for land on which the crop has failed; make a payment which is not properly due and on account of which one suffers loss
Kannada derivates : accike paying unjustly

Proto-Telugu : *ari
Meaning : tax, tribute
Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology
Telugu : ari

I am not sure if Sanskrt had any influence here.Even if it did (a big IF), it must have influenced the early proto-dravidian since both subgroups have this term. So clearly we can say the Proto-dravidians much before the Sangam era and even the proto-south dravidian era knew of Taxes and were organized that way.

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The word "Koyil" is of interest to me. There is no equivalent word in Kannada that I am aware of.

A very interesting thread indeed!
Koyil in Tamil means Temple while here he concludes it to mean palace???. I am also interested. Let me see if I can lookup the etymology.

Last edited by kamald; September 17th, 2015 at 05:44 AM.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 06:17 AM   #26

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The central question to the proto-dravidian origins is the question of kumari kandam, their mythical submerged homeland.
Given the fact that the earliest mentions & archaeology of Dravidian kingdoms show a strong maritime tradition and that Sundaland is both close enough and a 'sunken landmass' ( of which Borneo, Sumatra, Java and malay peninsula are the remnant fragments), its likely that the Dravidian origination and porto-dravidian roots are in the Sundaland area.
DNA evidence suggests fragmentation and dispersal of population from Sundaland coinciding with its submersion.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 06:53 AM   #27
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Dravida = Drava(liquid form)+ ida(place)
Dravida denotes place surrounding water.

So it denotes from Gujarat to Bengal
(Including Maharashtra Karnataka Kerala tamilnadu andhra Orissa)

India wasn't full or dravida tribe before Aryans. India had dravida in south. Ppl of gujarath and Maharashtra was called by diff name Orissa by odia tribe(sabar tribe) Bengal as vanga tribe and Bihar anga tribe rest Indus ppl were there.

Kumarikandam may not be as big as ppl suggest but it might be many small island nations as big as Lanka and as small as maldives lakshdeep..

Carbon dating suggests before 5000bce srilanka was attached to mainland India and around 4900bce it got separated due to some reason.

Last edited by truehistory; September 17th, 2015 at 07:37 AM.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 07:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truehistory View Post
Dravida = Drava(liquid form)+ ida(place)
Dravida denotes place surrounding water.

So it denotes from Gujarat to Bengal
(Including Maharashtra Karnataka Kerala tamilnadu and had a Orissa)

India wasn't full or dravida tribe before Aryans. India had dravida in south. Ppl of gujarath and Maharashtra was called by diff name Orissa by odia tribe(sabar tribe) Bengal as vanga tribe and Bihar anga tribe rest Indus ppl were there.

Kumarikandam may not be as big as ppl suggest but it might be many small island nations as big as Lanka and as small as maldives lakshdeep..

Carbon dating suggests before 5000bce srilanka was attached to mainland India and around 4900bce it got separated due to some reason.
It would be better if you can give proper evidence for this suggestion otherwise it is just like shooting in the air. Like the OP has done can you also come up with older words to corroborate this theory. Kumari and kandam are both Aryan words meaning these were more recent claims.
There is nothing in Proto-dravidian to suggest this. IIRC Sangamam texts mention only of lands taken by sea not submerged islands.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 07:41 AM   #29
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Origins of two main Hindu Gods, Siva and Krshna:
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Siva was and still is chiefly worshipped in the form of the 'linga' (phallus), usually a short cylindrical pillar with rounded top, which is the survival of a cult older than Indian civilization itself. Phalli have been found in the Harappa remains. Early Tamil literature refers to the setting up of ritual posts, which seem to have been phallic emblems. The cult of linga, at all times followed by some of the non-Aryans peoples, was incorporated into Hinduism around the beginning of the Christian era. (p310)
---------------------------------
Krshna in his pastoral and erotic aspect is evidently of different origin from Krsna the hero. The name means 'black', and the god is usually depicted as of that color. Perhaps the oldest clear reference to pastoral Krshna is in the early Tamil anthologies, where 'the black one' plays his flute and sports with milkmaids. He may have been originally a fertility god of the peninsula., whose cult was carried to the North by nomadic tribes of herdsmen. (p307)
From 'The wonder that was India - by A.L. Basham

Origin of Hindu Bhakti form of worship:
Quote:
-- the great medieval bhakti movement, expressing itself in hymns and mystical utterances in all spoken languages of India, had its real beginnings in the Tamil hymns composed from the sixth century onwards, and collectively known as Tirumalai. (p37)
From 'A cultural history of India' - edited by A.L. Basham

Origins of some key aspects of Hinduism, and culture such as Ahimsa, Yoga:
Quote:
Nonviolence is so remote from the rough and ready mores of Aryan nomads and their epic battles that we assume it has, like Yoga, and Mother Goddess worship, pre-Aryan roots. (p81)
From 'India' by Stanley Wolpert
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Old September 17th, 2015, 07:51 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamald View Post
Yes, the term has cognates. I never disputed that. But it is used as an adjective for many Gods and is not consistent with description of Lord Siva. Why then did 'shi' suddenl6 refer onk6 to Shiva? While the other independent root civappu from Dravidian as explained many times fits well. Plus the fact that Shiva is never used as a proper noun in any early Vedas show the clear possibility of the non-aryan nature of the God.
Well,Vedic mythology and terminology is not static.Shiva indeed was a general title in RV,applied to various deities.But it became popular with Rudra by the time of YV.Just like Shiva,Asura was originally a title meaning 'mighty' or 'supreme' originally applied to various Devas including Indra,but later it was collectively applied to the enemies of the Gods(this starts in RV itself actually).

Similarly,the term Narayana was originally applied to the cosmic Purusha.But later the term got applied to Vishnu when Vishnu got fused with cosmic Purusha.

Anyway I don't see anything 'Dravidian' in Shiva.



Quote:
Yes perhaps and I stand corrected. There was a theory proposed by Srinivas Iyengar but it seems highly speculative
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...%20god&f=false

Kannan as a God is not found in Sangam texts, it is however used only as an epithet in Sangam texts. Something similar to 'Shi' and Siva discussed above. Still my point is about the independent origin of Kannan still holds, as it was suggested kanhaiya was root for this. This is because of the root 'Kan' being the most proto Dravidian word.
But the 'eye' etymology is quite awkward.Kanha etymology suits better IMHO.
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