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Old September 17th, 2015, 10:48 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by kamskans View Post
And yet we will staunchly believe that flow was only in one direction. Couldn't the Aryans have absorbed Siva into their pantheon of Gods? It is because simple archaeology alone cannot solve the history of this vast period do we look for linguistic evidence which is where there are huge doubts in vedic origin of Siva as has been pointed out before.
Shiva was an epithet of Indra, Agni and Rudra in Rig Veda. At a much deeper level, all the Gods including Vishnu are just attributes. However for the ease of worship, these are Gods. As much as the Vedic period emphasized ritualistic worship, for people who went beyond material gains, there was no only exemption but also a coveted status. These were the munis and yatis. Please note that neither the word muni nor yati has any Dravidian origin, but has Vedic origins. The Rishis were a class of people who were not only masters of their senses, but also masters of poetry, i.e. chandas. So they were able to proclaim the subtle truths of their meditative state to poetry. Now this poetry served as means of ritual worship for worldly and divine purposes, and a text for contemplative purposes by the people interested in metaphysical concepts (read Atmajnana/Brahmajnana).

Now coming to Rudras, they are eleven in number, and they represent 5 mental senses, 5 physical senses and one mind principle. the mind principle is the main Rudra, who at his command has ten other Rudras or its Ganas. Ordinarily, the mind principle is very powerful, and can achieve wonders with its control over other Rudras. So Rudra at that level is a deity that is so powerful. If the person is not in control of senses, Rudra with the help of Rudras gives negative results or punishment. If in control, it gives positive results or is benign. When the mind principle or main Rudra is sublimated , it is in the state of Shiva, a blemishless auspicious state. Now, who can do such a thing? think of the Rishis, Yatis and Munis, who are the people who can do it. Historically one such Rishi/Muni/Yati did that (as many others have done also). That personage is so deep rooted in our civilization that people called him Shiva, the auspicious. Is he a Rudra? He absolutely is. You have to read the right texts to understand the meanings of concepts that Vedic people had. Reading a Samhita with a dictionary is not going to give you the right meanings.

As @Devdas rightly pointed out, there must have been one civilization throughout India, that had a similar culture. It needs to be seen why there is an apparent difference in languages, and how they were connected in the past if they were connected at all. The Vedic people were one such group of people who were adept at bringing a world order in place besides being masters of contemplation and philosophy.

It is quite possible that the worship of Linga started before IVC, and I believe the source is in Atharva Veda.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 11:09 AM   #42
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Many of the powerful Vedic Aryan Gods like Indra, Varuna, Soma and so on, faded away. Hardly a temple is dedicated to the all important Aryan God Brahman today. The fact that Hindu priests are known as Brahmins, for servicing the Brahman, shows his importance one time. Brahmin priests now service India's non-Aryan Gods for most part. (This is what I read in an Indian history book, and I will provide the quote when I locate it again.)

The quotes of Hindu Gods, beliefs and culture, I provided earlier come from the writings of highly reputable Indologists and historians well respected across the globe. I only trust such sources.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 11:19 AM   #43
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Guys please don't highjack this thread and please take this discussion to the thread on the other thread on Dravidian religions.
With regards to Proto-Dravidian this is what Krishnamurti says

There were words for god [∗p¯e (y), ∗p¯en. 4438, in SD II, but in SD I ‘devil’] and k¯o/k¯ont-‘king, god’. There were animal sacrifices to attain wishes [w¯e.]this word has changed its meaning to ‘offerings made in fire’ after perhaps the Aryanization of South India. In Telugu w¯el-cu is ‘to sacrifice in fire’ and w¯elpu ‘god’. The basic meaning of w¯e.
[ultimately from weH-] was ‘to wish, desire’.There is a special verb to denote animal sacrifices, a.l-V-kk- found in South Dravidian II and Brahui. Pollution [pul-V] was observed on different occasions, menstruation [mu.t.tu], birth [pur-u.tu], death etc.
Not much is known about the religious rituals of Proto-Dravidians. Scholars have speculated about them in terms of the current ritual practices.

The religion can only be speculated upon and it will be an endless discussion. It is best we take it up in that other thread.

Last edited by kamald; September 17th, 2015 at 11:24 AM.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 11:41 AM   #44
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Many of the powerful Vedic Aryan Gods like Indra, Varuna, Soma and so on, faded away. Hardly a temple is dedicated to the all important Aryan God Brahman today. The fact that Hindu priests are known as Brahmins, for servicing the Brahman, shows his importance one time. Brahmin priests now service India's non-Aryan Gods for most part. (This is what I read in an Indian history book, and I will provide the quote when I locate it again.)

The quotes of Hindu Gods, beliefs and culture, I provided earlier come from the writings of highly reputable Indologists and historians well respected across the globe. I only trust such sources.
Yes a large majority of authors say the same yet some here love browbeating the same thing saying dravidians were all aryanized since recorded history. If recorded history is all we go by then written history starts only around 400-300 BCE in India. Even when earliest Linga temple in Andhra is pointed out, a simple statement is made that Andhra was aryanized as if no other evidence needs to be given to suggest how that linga tradition was passed on etc. Just one sweeping statement is enough. Dravidian nationalists who said everything was Dravidian have taken a break and then we have these bunch. History to these people starts and ends with Aryan ...< Epic facepalm >
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Old September 17th, 2015, 01:18 PM   #45

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Originally Posted by kamskans View Post
Yes a large majority of authors say the same yet some here love browbeating the same thing saying dravidians were all aryanized since recorded history. If recorded history is all we go by then written history starts only around 400-300 BCE in India. Even when earliest Linga temple in Andhra is pointed out, a simple statement is made that Andhra was aryanized as if no other evidence needs to be given to suggest how that linga tradition was passed on etc. Just one sweeping statement is enough. Dravidian nationalists who said everything was Dravidian have taken a break and then we have these bunch. History to these people starts and ends with Aryan ...< Epic facepalm >
Just as in language, I think a good indication of what is Dravidian/non-Aryan and what is Aryan in Hinduism is to compare religious elements in Hinduism with those of other Indo-European religions. Other IE religions in places like Central Asia and Iran have fire sacrifices, veneration of soma, four-fold caste system, etc. Does any other IE religion have anything like linga worship?
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Old September 17th, 2015, 01:25 PM   #46
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Just as in language, I think a good indication of what is Dravidian/non-Aryan and what is Aryan in Hinduism is to compare religious elements in Hinduism with those of other Indo-European religions. Other IE religions in places like Central Asia and Iran have fire sacrifices, veneration of soma, four-fold caste system, etc. Does any other IE religion have anything like linga worship?

Yes,other Indo-Europeans also had it.In fact phallic-fertility cults were popular all over the world,not just among Indo-Europeans.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 01:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by kandal View Post
Many of the powerful Vedic Aryan Gods like Indra, Varuna, Soma and so on, faded away. Hardly a temple is dedicated to the all important Aryan God Brahman today. The fact that Hindu priests are known as Brahmins, for servicing the Brahman, shows his importance one time. Brahmin priests now service India's non-Aryan Gods for most part. (This is what I read in an Indian history book, and I will provide the quote when I locate it again.)

The quotes of Hindu Gods, beliefs and culture, I provided earlier come from the writings of highly reputable Indologists and historians well respected across the globe. I only trust such sources.
Indra,Soma,Varuna,Mitra etc indeed faded away.But that doesn't make other deities 'non-Aryan' since most have Sanskritic Mantras,names,mythology and so on.


You're free to stick with what you want to believe.I take no author for granted,I would rather come to a logical conclusion myself after reading various sources.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 01:32 PM   #48
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Guys please don't highjack this thread and please take this discussion to the thread on the other thread on Dravidian religions.
With regards to Proto-Dravidian this is what Krishnamurti says

There were words for god [∗p¯e (y), ∗p¯en. 4438, in SD II, but in SD I ‘devil’] and k¯o/k¯ont-‘king, god’. There were animal sacrifices to attain wishes [w¯e.]this word has changed its meaning to ‘offerings made in fire’ after perhaps the Aryanization of South India. In Telugu w¯el-cu is ‘to sacrifice in fire’ and w¯elpu ‘god’. The basic meaning of w¯e.
[ultimately from weH-] was ‘to wish, desire’.There is a special verb to denote animal sacrifices, a.l-V-kk- found in South Dravidian II and Brahui. Pollution [pul-V] was observed on different occasions, menstruation [mu.t.tu], birth [pur-u.tu], death etc.
Not much is known about the religious rituals of Proto-Dravidians. Scholars have speculated about them in terms of the current ritual practices.

The religion can only be speculated upon and it will be an endless discussion. It is best we take it up in that other thread.

Indeed.But sacrifices to attain wishes,king god,pollution/impurity etc are basic features for all religions!
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Old September 17th, 2015, 01:50 PM   #49
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Yes a large majority of authors say the same yet some here love browbeating the same thing saying dravidians were all aryanized since recorded history. If recorded history is all we go by then written history starts only around 400-300 BCE in India. Even when earliest Linga temple in Andhra is pointed out, a simple statement is made that Andhra was aryanized as if no other evidence needs to be given to suggest how that linga tradition was passed on etc. Just one sweeping statement is enough. Dravidian nationalists who said everything was Dravidian have taken a break and then we have these bunch. History to these people starts and ends with Aryan ...< Epic facepalm >


Beyond the recorded history,we have no clue about what happened.But at least in north,we have material culture which corroborates the textual descriptions.In south we don't have any texts to corroborate the pre-500 BCE period.

As for Linga,you have ignored my other point about Linga dating to almost same period from Bhita and the iconographic influence from the north.

South Indian history indeed starts with Aryanization,no serious historian would dispute that.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 02:40 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by kamald View Post
Guys please don't highjack this thread and please take this discussion to the thread on the other thread on Dravidian religions.
With regards to Proto-Dravidian this is what Krishnamurti says

There were words for god [∗p¯e (y), ∗p¯en. 4438, in SD II, but in SD I ‘devil’] and k¯o/k¯ont-‘king, god’. There were animal sacrifices to attain wishes [w¯e.]this word has changed its meaning to ‘offerings made in fire’ after perhaps the Aryanization of South India. In Telugu w¯el-cu is ‘to sacrifice in fire’ and w¯elpu ‘god’. The basic meaning of w¯e.
[ultimately from weH-] was ‘to wish, desire’.There is a special verb to denote animal sacrifices, a.l-V-kk- found in South Dravidian II and Brahui. Pollution [pul-V] was observed on different occasions, menstruation [mu.t.tu], birth [pur-u.tu], death etc.
Not much is known about the religious rituals of Proto-Dravidians. Scholars have speculated about them in terms of the current ritual practices.

The religion can only be speculated upon and it will be an endless discussion. It is best we take it up in that other thread.
The word in Kannada for request/ask is "Bedu" which is the theorized "WeH" - to wish or desire is from Sanskrit Vedhate (with root Vidh).

The Dravidian word "muttu" for menstruation has actually nothing to do with "menstruation" directly. It is more to mean "do not touch", or anything related to touch. This is because the word for touch is also "muttu" in Kannada. The root of this word it seems again is in Sanskrit word "mrshati", that means touch(root Mrsh).

Let's now consider pollution during birth: Purutu or Purudu in Kannada. The related Sanskrit word is Prasuti.

In another thread, I had argued for Sanskrit origin for the word "Bali" meaning sacrifice. It is indeed "Bali" in Sanskrit.

Coming to word for devil - Peyi, or Pey, Peta(in Kannada), all these words have Sanskrit origin. The word is Preta (Root: Pre, that means depart). This makes a lot of sense because we are talking about departed entity.

The observance of pollution during birth, death and menstruation is strong among Brahmins, and needless to say that it has its origin in Vedic customs as documented in the Dharma Shastras.

We will try to explore other words later. My argument is not to say that Dravidians were totally without culture or anything of that sort. But I am looking at the perspective of a common origin for both North and South Indian languages and culture and their indigenous origin in India. Whether I am right in my perspective I do not know for sure, but I think it is worth a try.
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