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Old March 29th, 2016, 07:33 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
Besides not giving a lot of answers …

Btw (sorry, I really don't remember where I heard it, and I can't check it now), on the "Magyar" word: wasn't an Arab traveler / geographer talking about something like "al-Maghiari" at the turn of the first millennium already?
well the guy(s) were Persian technically, but wrote in Arabic indeed, the so called Jayhani tradition (Jayhani's work was lost and it is preserved by the works of ibn Rustah and Gardezi. ibn Rustah's work was written in the 10th century but it includes an account on the Hungarians in the 9th century, describing them still before the land conquest. There Hungarians are called "al-Majghariyya" المجغرية .
It is the earliest mention of the ethnonym. (also he considers them being a "kind of the Turks" or a "specie of Turks")

Last edited by Tulun; March 29th, 2016 at 07:41 PM.
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Old March 29th, 2016, 09:37 PM   #52

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Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
well the guy(s) were Persian technically, but wrote in Arabic indeed, the so called Jayhani tradition (Jayhani's work was lost and it is preserved by the works of ibn Rustah and Gardezi. ibn Rustah's work was written in the 10th century but it includes an account on the Hungarians in the 9th century, describing them still before the land conquest. There Hungarians are called "al-Majghariyya" المجغرية .
It is the earliest mention of the ethnonym. (also he considers them being a "kind of the Turks" or a "specie of Turks")
Thank You, Tulun. (btw, it's always a pleasure to read Your posts !)
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 02:22 AM   #53
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Were Turkic elements in Magyars related to modern Kipchak-speakers?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchak_languages
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 05:00 AM   #54
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Were Turkic elements in Magyars related to modern Kipchak-speakers?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchak_languages
The pre land-conquest Turkic elements were in a very big part Bulgar/Ogur/Chuvash or "-r" type Turkic (thats why a lot of Turkic origin words in Hungarian are not easily recognizible for laymen, quite far from modern Turkish). The only living representative of that Turkic branch is the modern Cuvash. I think the opinion is that the Khazars also spoke a Bulgar/Ogur/Chuvash type of Turkic (the very little what is known about original Hunnic also shows they spoke a language belonging to this group).

After the land conquest, in the 10th-11th century Pechenegs also settled, i'm not sure if it is decided what type of Turkic language did they speak, Oguz or Kipchak (but certainly not Ogur, there is only one known word from their language that shows Chuvash type).
Then the Cumans, who settled in the 13th century spoke a Kipchak Turkic language.

There was apparently also a 10th century (at least Gesta Hungarorum claims it in the time of chieftain Taksony, in reality could be later) immigration of some already Muslim Volga Bulgars. Volga Bulgars also spoke a Bulgar/Ogur/Chuvash type Turkic language.

A very small "Tatar" contingent also settled in the later half of 13th century, in reality those could also speak Kipchak Turkic, maybe identical with Cuman.

And then of course the latest Turkic linguistic influance came with Ottoman rule of 16-17th century, there was no ethnic Turkic settlement (at least nothing notable), most of the Ottoman muslim population that settled in Hungary were of South Slav origins, and apart from their Serbo-(Bosno-)Croatian mother tongue, the Ottoman Turkish they used was western Rumelian Turkish dialect.

Last edited by Tulun; April 3rd, 2016 at 05:04 AM.
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