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Old January 10th, 2010, 12:21 AM   #1
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Yalta 1945-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


Quote from Wiki:
Yalta_Conference Yalta_Conference

Qte ”The Big Three further agreed that democracies would be established, all liberated European and former Axis satellite countries would hold free elections and that order would be restored. In that regard, they promised to rebuild occupied countries by processes that will allow them "to create democratic institutions of their own choice. This is a principle of the Atlantic Charter -- the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live". The report that resulted stated that the three would assist occupied countries to form interim government that "pledged to the earliest possible establishment through free elections of the Governments responsive to the will of the people" and to "facilitate where necessary the holding of such elections.Qte

Did the Big three really believed in this statement or was it a biggest WWII hypocrisy?

Last edited by Edward; January 10th, 2010 at 07:44 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 02:08 AM   #2
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Re: Yalta 1944-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


Roosevelt, who died two month after Yalta, had private talks with Staline (ie without Churchill) what did they said ? Churchill lost the 1945 election. Hopkins died in january 1946. There was hypocrisy from Staline, but what could our governments do beside cold war ?
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Old January 10th, 2010, 03:09 AM   #3

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Re: Yalta 1944-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


Yalta was relatively cut and dried... at Casablanca. Yalta was largely a PR exercise. However, Barlier is right: the west could do very little to move Stalin, and it is obvious that the USSR and west were only allies because they had to be; neither side trusted the other.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 03:59 AM   #4
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Re: Yalta 1945-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


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Yalta was relatively cut and dried... at Casablanca. Yalta was largely a PR exercise. However, Barlier is right: the west could do very little to move Stalin, and it is obvious that the USSR and west were only allies because they had to be; neither side trusted the other.
It was rather Teheran than Casablanca. Roosevelt stayed in Soviet embassy due to clever Stalin plot suggesting assassination attempt on Roosevelt life.
In any case the betrayal of the East European allies was total and brutal. Their future has been decided without any consultation with the legitimate government of these counters
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Old January 10th, 2010, 05:20 AM   #5
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Re: Yalta 1944-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


Casablanca/Anfa (January 14-24, 1943): talks about the strategy toward Europe after the war. Staline was invated but I he declined the invitation.
Teheran (November 28 to December 1, 1943) : talks about the opening of a second front.

Conferences were also held in Cairo (November 22 - 26, 1943), Postdam (July 17 to 2 August 2, 1945).

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It was rather Teheran than Casablanca. Roosevelt stayed in Soviet embassy due to clever Stalin plot suggesting assassination attempt on Roosevelt life.
Since 1941 Iran was occupied by Soviets and Britishs. Why a plot ? Which difference does that make where Roosevelt stayed, the conference was in the Soviet Embassy.

Last edited by barlier; January 10th, 2010 at 05:59 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 02:16 PM   #6
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Re: Yalta 1944-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


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Originally Posted by barlier View Post
Casablanca/Anfa (January 14-24, 1943): talks about the strategy toward Europe after the war. Staline was invated but I he declined the invitation.
Teheran (November 28 to December 1, 1943) : talks about the opening of a second front.

Conferences were also held in Cairo (November 22 - 26, 1943), Postdam (July 17 to 2 August 2, 1945).

Since 1941 Iran was occupied by Soviets and Britishs. Why a plot ? Which difference does that make where Roosevelt stayed, the conference was in the Soviet Embassy.
It was the plot to lure Roosevelt to stay in Soviet embassy so Stalin could discuss some issues without Churchill. I remember also something about bugging of FDR room in Russian Embassy
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol47no1/article02.html
Some quotes from above link below
Qte” Reilly tested a low-flying route to Iran and landed at Gale Morghe Airport, a Soviet airstrip, where he was met by Soviet Security. In his later memoir, he recalls the man in charge as “General Artikov,” but it was more likely Gen. Dmitry Arkadiev, a forty-three-year-old functionary who headed the NKVD department of transportation. Reilly never saw the real head of the NKVD, Lavrenty Beria, who was present but kept to the shadows. Arkadiev took Reilly forthwith on a tour of the Soviet Embassy and told him in passing that the NKVD had learned that Nazi “parachutists” had jumped in the area the previous day, but so far had not been apprehended. Their intentions could only be terrible: kidnapping and/or assassination of the world leaders, and possibly sabotage of key installations.
Although the exact date for the Teheran conference had not yet been fixed, the Nazis were aware of the prospect. On 22 November, New York Times correspondent James Reston reported from London that a German radio broadcast had announced a Big Three meeting in Teheran at the end of the month. It is difficult to understand why the Nazis would disclose the secret meeting if they planned to assassinate its participants. They may have learned about the conference from FDR and Churchill’s intercontinental telephone calls, all of which were intercepted after a technical breakthrough by German intelligence in March 1942.
Reilly proceeded to inspect the British and American premises, and on his own turf extended the protected area and doubled the guard. A hundred American soldiers pitched tents on the legation grounds to be ready for any contingency. Soviet, British, and American security dragged a net through the city for Nazi agents, while Reilly flew off to Basra, Iraq, to evaluate the train route. Upon his return, he learned that a Nazi spy in custody, “Fritz Meier,” had admitted, after a bit of persuasion, that he expected to be contacted by the “paratroopers.” But, again, this information appears faulty, because the British had rolled up Franz Mayer and his non-functional Teheran network in August. Nevertheless, Reilly took the plot seriously. He flew back to the President in Cairo, leaving instructions with his subordinates to work with the NKVD in his absence.
A few items from Teheran Conference agenda below:
Talk:Tehran_Conference Talk:Tehran_Conference

Qte” The main objective of the United States and Great Britain was to ensure full cooperation and assistance from the Soviet Union for their war policies. Stalin agreed, but at a price: Roosevelt and Churchill would have to support his reign and the partisans in Yugoslavia, and also allow for the manipulation of the border between Poland and the USSR. Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin then moved on to other matters, namely Operation Overlord and general war policy.” Qte.

Qte” The final clause of this sentence: Churchill and Roosevelt also gave Stalin free rein in his own country, and allowed the USSR to set up puppet communist governments in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Baltic states, Romania, and other Eastern European countries what has become a reason of loss of freedom by these countries for next fifty years and genesis of Cold War. Does not seem to make sense, or appears to be at the very least clumsily constructed”.Qte

Qte “One of Roosevelt and Churchill's main concessions concerned post-war Poland. Stalin wished for an area in the Eastern part of Poland to be added to the USSR, and for the border to be lengthened elsewhere in the country. Roosevelt and Churchill agreed to this demand, and Poland’s borders were declared to lie along the Oder and Neisse rivers and the Curzon line, despite protests of the Polish government-in-exile in London. Churchill and Roosevelt also gave Stalin free rein in his own country, and consented to the USSR setting up puppet communist governments in Poland, Czechslovakia, the Baltic states, Romania, and other Eastern European countries which would result in a loss of freedom by these countries for the next fifty years and would be the genesis of the Cold War. After the conference it was agreed that military leaders of the three countries would meet together often, for further discussion.” Qte
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Old January 10th, 2010, 03:17 PM   #7
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Re: Yalta 1944-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


@Edward, If I'm under the impression you look at history with the mind of a distric attorney.
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Churchill and Roosevelt also gave Stalin free rein in his own country,
By the same token Stalin gave Churchill and Roosevelt free rein in UK and USA.
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and consented to the USSR setting up puppet communist governments in Poland, Czechslovakia, the Baltic states, Romania, and other Eastern European countries which would result in a loss of freedom by these countries for the next fifty years and would be the genesis of the Cold War.
It's because they did not consent and our gouvernments understood we had been cheated that we had a cold war. BTW if you believe no Americans were involved in setting or unsetting governments in Western Europe and in South-America, it's time to catch up.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 05:25 PM   #8

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Re: Yalta 1944-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


I don't think there was any naïveté. I think everybody knew the Russians weren't going leave eastern Europe afterward. As for betrayal, well, I think the people of Britain, France, and the US would have looked askance(to say the least) at the prospect of starting up WWIII one day after WWII had ended.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 06:22 PM   #9
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Re: Yalta 1945-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


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@Edward, If I'm under the impression you look at history with the mind of a distric attorney.
By the same token Stalin gave Churchill and Roosevelt free rein in UK and USA.
It's because they did not consent and our gouvernments understood we had been cheated that we had a cold war. BTW if you believe no Americans were involved in setting or unsetting governments in Western Europe and in South-America, it's time to catch up.
Hold your horses, mate.
The quotes you attributed to me are the direct quotes from Wiki,not my. I have clearly stated this in my post.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 06:53 PM   #10
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Re: Yalta 1944-The Great Betrayal or the Great Political Naivety.


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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
I don't think there was any naïveté. I think everybody knew the Russians weren't going leave eastern Europe afterward. As for betrayal, well, I think the people of Britain, France, and the US would have looked askance(to say the least) at the prospect of starting up WWIII one day after WWII had ended.
Look at the quote below from
Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt
If this is not political naivety, I do not know haw to name it.


Qte “By late 1943, it was apparent that the Allies would ultimately defeat Nazi Germany, and it became increasingly important to make high-level political decisions about the course of the war and the postwar future of Europe. Roosevelt met with Churchill and the Chinese leader Chiang Kai-shek at the Cairo Conference in November 1943, and then went to Tehran to confer with Churchill and Stalin. While Churchill viewed Stalin as a tyrant, when warned of potential domination by a Stalin dictatorship over part of Europe, Roosevelt responded with a statement summarizing his rationale for relations with Stalin: "I just have a hunch that Stalin is not that kind of a man. . . . I think that if I give him everything I possibly can and ask for nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won't try to annex anything and will work with me for a world of democracy and peace." Qte
Stalin probably laughed all the way from Teheran to Moscow. He must know this statement as Soviets bugged USA residences.

Last edited by Edward; January 10th, 2010 at 07:29 PM.
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