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Old July 16th, 2016, 11:51 AM   #31
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When Serbia occupied Kosovo in 1912, with a lot of blood spilled, Serbs in Kosovo were a minority. Albanians were a majority and did not welcome Serbian rule. Was the occupation justified?
albanians were not majority in every part of kosvo and are not still majority in north and want to occupy north by your accord despite north population rejection of albanian rule.
Serbs were majority in krajina region in croatia.Was their "occupation" justified?Is Kurdish occupation justified?


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He was a soldier and he actually did. He saw it all by himself.
tell me one of his eyewitness accord of massacre he witness firsthand.most of he saw is burning of some villages which are not noveltz in warfare.i am not denying some killings did take place but is blown out of proportion.he him slef was communist and ultra critical of goverment.


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So you're saying that todays Serbia is the successor of the Serb medieval State that ceased to exist 500 years ago? That's like saying modern Greece is the successor of the Byzantium Empire. That doesn't even make any sense.
read what i actually wrote.19th century...



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I'm not an Albanian nationalist and weather they made some churches or not is irrelevant we know Kosovo had a history before Serbs. They weren't even the first Slavs to hold it which were actually the Bulgarians.
bulgarians held serbian population of region.


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if you compare the Kosovo Albanian diaspora that fled from the war to the expelled Kosovo Serbs, the latter becomes an insignificant number.
and_did albanians returned-they did serbs didnt and are dicouraged as i already pointed article of ksovo govermnet protesting against building settlement for explelled serb.

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Serb medieval state held Kosovo for only ca 200 years or something. Ottoman Empire Held it for 500 years.
does turkey have significant populatuion,cultural instituions in region as do serbs.Does world and UN recognise Turkez as Kososvo owner.


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That's because the region was invaded by Slavs. The only Serbs that have Balkan genetics are actually the ones usually related to Albanians. These Serbs are usually from Montenegro. And they are most likely Slavicized.
Serbs in Serbia dont look like typical slavs-blonde hari for example is prettz rare.Same is true for most blakan slavs.
Albanians despite their claim are not representing whole paleobalkanian population.

Last edited by Azatoth; July 16th, 2016 at 12:00 PM.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 11:56 AM   #32
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No, but methods which lead to this particular declaration of independence do.
i could concur but violent uprisings are not novelty in seeking independence.Belgrade denied them other way of seeking indepedednce and reduced ther autonomy illegally prior to that.

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The International Court of Politics, you mean?
well when you talk about legality you usually appeal to court.And international court is highest instance of it.
But i agree no doubt politics played part.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 12:45 PM   #33

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i could concur but violent uprisings are not novelty in seeking independence.Belgrade denied them other way of seeking indepedednce and reduced ther autonomy illegally prior to that.
I don't think a country not allowing a chunk of its territory to cede should result in those people taking up arms and shooting up the law enforcement, but worse of all killing people who disagree and harvesting their organs (other Albanians included).

Side question for everyone - What's the oldest Albanian-made structure in Kosovo?
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Old July 16th, 2016, 12:59 PM   #34
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I don't think a country not allowing a chunk of its territory to cede should result in those people taking up arms and shooting up the law enforcement, but worse of all killing people who disagree and harvesting their organs (other Albanians included).

Side question for everyone - What's the oldest Albanian-made structure in Kosovo?
i also dont think that countrz revoking rights for unrulz minority is way to go.
strange serbs pionereeed what croatians did to them in croatia subsequently in 90s and they also started armed uprising in both croatia and bosnia on ethnic basis as did albanians.it cant be that serbs can be right in both instances.that also apply to nato support to separatists in kosovo and those fighting separatists in croatia/bosnia.i see lot of hipocrisy on balkans.

also not all those wanting indepndence were violent and in fact armed conflict started relatively late.Belgrade ignored issues on kosovo and considering collapse of serbian economz in 90s and that it hit hard kosovo which was already poorest region of yougoslavia i am puzzled how it didnt started before.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 01:13 PM   #35

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i also dont think that countrz revoking rights for unrulz minority is way to go.
strange serbs pionereeed what croatians did to them in croatia subsequently in 90s and they also started armed uprising in both croatia and bosnia on ethnic basis as did albanians.it cant be that serbs can be right in both instances.that also apply to nato support to separatists in kosovo and those fighting separatists in croatia/bosnia.i see lot of hipocrisy on balkans.
So as you say, the Serbs of Croatia declared independence which was not granted to them by the international public nor allowed by Croatia, why should Serbs only years later allow Albanians the same right the world denied the Serbs? If anything, the world should've been consistant and sided with the Serbs, clearly hypocrisy is not only a Balkan trait.

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also not all those wanting indepndence were violent and in fact armed conflict started relatively late.Belgrade ignored issues on kosovo and considering collapse of serbian economz in 90s and that it hit hard kosovo which was already poorest region of yougoslavia i am puzzled how it didnt started before.
Well they declared independence in 1991 but no one recognized it besides Albania. I know that not everyone was violent, there were hunger strikes and peaceful protests, I'm saying the few that did take up arms forced the others to be either accomplices or be their victims. There were occasions where the KLA killed their own people because they wanted to stay out of it and live in peace, so they killed them on the grounds of treason. The actual escalation of the conflict only happened after NATO got involved and started dropping bombs irrelevant of nationality. Isn't it ironic that they killed the civilians they were trying to protect? In one air strike they killed more Albanian civilians than the western news outlets claimed the Serbs killed in Račak.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 01:26 PM   #36

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Kosovo has been the heartland of Serbian Orthodoxy for 1200 years. Kosovo is Serbia, period.

Look what the population there does... they burn and destroy historic Churches.... Kosovo Albanian war criminals have gotten away with murder, organ trafficking, etc.....

Serbia gets blamed for everything, and it's wrong.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 01:31 PM   #37
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So as you say, the Serbs of Croatia declared independence which was not granted to them by the international public nor allowed by Croatia, why should Serbs only years later allow Albanians the same right the world denied the Serbs? If anything, the world should've been consistant and sided with the Serbs, clearly hypocrisy is not only a Balkan trait.
yes.balakn trait is my poor wording asd i also accused nato of it.
i dont thjink albanians have right ot indepndence considering criterium appllied in croatia/bosnia.

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Well they declared independence in 1991 but no one recognized it besides Albania. I know that not everyone was violent, there were hunger strikes and peaceful protests, I'm saying the few that did take up arms forced the others to be either accomplices or be their victims. There were occasions where the KLA killed their own people because they wanted to stay out of it and live in peace, so they killed them on the grounds of treason. The actual escalation of the conflict only happened after NATO got involved and started dropping bombs irrelevant of nationality. Isn't it ironic that they killed the civilians they were trying to protect? In one air strike they killed more Albanian civilians than the western news outlets claimed the Serbs killed in Račak.
i agree that intervention was bad and led to serious right violations of non albanians.though situation was bad someething had to be done but this was done bz un to diffuse situation and not nato armed attack-

Last edited by Azatoth; July 16th, 2016 at 01:40 PM.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 02:34 PM   #38

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I don't hate Albanians. I had family relatives killed by both Croats and Bosniaks killed in WW2, my mother's side of the family expelled from their centuries old homes in the 90s. I don't hate them either.
What Albanians are doing to Serbs and other minorities, though, somehow escapes the medias. The great irony is when Albanians claim churches and monasteries as theirs while at the same time burning them and persecuting the monks. Now that all the Serbs were forced out they turned on the clergy that remained there defiantly. What they did in Kosovo is defined as a cultural genocide. They want to remove every trace of Serbs from Kosovo, and the population is suffering. The muslims are forced to declare as Albanians while others are forced to leave through terror. There are over 95% Albanians there today and you can bet it didn't happen naturally. And the West had no issue stepping in during the 90s to 'end' the conflict while today they watch idly while these same people force others out. Like these American soldiers who take pictures while a Serb house burns in the background:
Click the image to open in full size.

Next time one touches the topic of Kosovo they should at the very least check the aftermath if they're too lazy to look at the history. Serbs are not the ultimate evil in the Balkans, just a byproduct of historical injustice, just like every other Balkan country.
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Old July 19th, 2016, 02:15 AM   #39
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I don't hate Albanians. I had family relatives killed by both Croats and Bosniaks killed in WW2, my mother's side of the family expelled from their centuries old homes in the 90s. I don't hate them either.
What Albanians are doing to Serbs and other minorities, though, somehow escapes the medias. The great irony is when Albanians claim churches and monasteries as theirs while at the same time burning them and persecuting the monks. Now that all the Serbs were forced out they turned on the clergy that remained there defiantly. What they did in Kosovo is defined as a cultural genocide. They want to remove every trace of Serbs from Kosovo, and the population is suffering. The muslims are forced to declare as Albanians while others are forced to leave through terror. There are over 95% Albanians there today and you can bet it didn't happen naturally. And the West had no issue stepping in during the 90s to 'end' the conflict while today they watch idly while these same people force others out. Like these American soldiers who take pictures while a Serb house burns in the background:
Click the image to open in full size.

Next time one touches the topic of Kosovo they should at the very least check the aftermath if they're too lazy to look at the history. Serbs are not the ultimate evil in the Balkans, just a byproduct of historical injustice, just like every other Balkan country.
I will answer some other posts here later. And I will bring sources to my claims later. Serbs also burned down croatian churches and Albanian churches.

There are pictures of Albanians from the 19th-20th century or something around Orthodox churches in Kosovo. They were taking care of the churches.



I can tell you there are so many myths about this conflict. Especially on the Serbian side.

The population of Kosovo turned Albanian naturally. Isolated Mountain tribes from what is today South Montenegro/Northern Albania/Malsia e Dukagjinit started settling in the lowlands, in what they call Rrafshi Dukagjinit/Low lands of Dukagjini, to make more space for their population. There was a Albanian presence even during the Serb medieval state. There was an Albanian minority and a Vlach minority. But Serbs were a majority. Now prior to Slavs arrival who lived there originally? It was Albanians and Vlachs.

Prior to Serb medieval occupation, the region was described as Bulgarian, the population was described as Bulgarian.

It's demographics have changed constantly. But at the end of the day people are telling me it's somehow Serbian?

But forget about these things for a while, and tell me; When did the Albanian-Serbian conflict start? I can tell you there was never any hate between Albanians and Serbs prior to the 19th or 18th century. National counsciousness didn't exist during those times like it did today.

Serbias national hero, Karadorde was of Albanian origin according to Serbian Dimitri Tucovic. Karadorde's friend was also an Albanian from Nish, who apparently had saved Karadordes life. Prior to the early 20th century or around like that, the populaton turned Albanian naturally. There was never any great migration. Serbs never cared about Kosovo neither did they ever claim it as theirs. These type of Nationalistic myths that they are the saviors of Europe and Christianity and that every Muslim is an enemy and Ottoman collaborate started appearing in the 20th century by Serbian writers. and are of course based on myths because both the Bosniak Muslims and the Muslim Albanians fought against the Ottomans. The Ottomans even plotted to exterminate the Albanian Muslims. The Ultra Chavunist ''feelings'' Serbs have for Kosovo I can tell you is recent, not any older than 100 years old, which led to it's colonization/occupation in 1912 with a predominant Albanian population even at that time, and which is what sparked the Albanian-Serbian conflict.

That there was a Muslim massacre on the Christian population is a lie. Nothing stopped the Christian population from converting to Islam themselves.

These Ultra Chavunist writers started refering to the Battle of Kosovo and how Serbs fought against Muslims. In this battle you even had Albanian, Hungarians, Bosniaks etc

So basically Serbs are self-proclaimed saviors. It's not how eveyone needs to see it. Everyone has fought and conquered and subjogated. What is the difference between Ottomans expanding into the Balkans and Slavs? Byzantium fought for control of Kosovo, Bulgarians, Serbians, Ottomans, Albanians etc. As a matter of fact, Albanian Dukagjinis liberated Western Kosovo from the Ottomans for some time during the 15th century. This was atleast 100 years after the Battle of Kosovo. So last time parts of todays Kosovo was under Balkan occupation, it was under Albanian occupation. How at the end of the day are Serbs the saviors? These are Ultra Nationalistic myths.

As for Kosovo being cultural center of Serbs for 1200 years, I can tell you the region was described as Bulgarian under Bulgarian occupation. Serb medieval state held it ca for 200-250 years. It was Serbian for 200-250 years. It was Ottoman for 500 years or something. That's Ottoman influence for 500 years. Do you know what a continuity is? There is no continuity when it was 500 years under Ottoman occupation. That's a break of 500 years. That's not a continuity. 500 years is a long time.

Last edited by King Kong; July 19th, 2016 at 02:21 AM.
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Old July 19th, 2016, 02:37 AM   #40
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The population of Kosovo turned Albanian naturally. Isolated Mountain tribes from what is today South Montenegro/Northern Albania/Malsia e Dukagjinit started settling in the lowlands, in what they call Rrafshi Dukagjinit/Low lands of Dukagjini, to make more space for their population. There was a Albanian presence even during the Serb medieval state. There was an Albanian minority and a Vlach minority. But Serbs were a majority. Now prior to Slavs arrival who lived there originally? It was Albanians and Vlachs.
you dont have any basis for claim that people called albanians lived there in significant numbers except bz projectinvg presence into past.albanians firest metnions are in albania regions where theri etnnogenesis happened.even albanopolis adn other thing which are mentioned as precusors of albanians are on territory of Albania not Kosovo.
As for numbers we have turksih census which shows measure of albanian presence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1455_d...vi%C4%87_lands
46 albanian houses vs 13 000 serbian ones.yeah its natural that we have oppostie situation now.
albanian presence incresed after flight of serbs under ottoman violence after uprisings its far from natural.

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Prior to Serb medieval occupation, the region was described as Bulgarian, the population was described as Bulgarian.
by whom and how it became serbian overnight,you realise that bulgarians overtook slavic terrriotiers and later medned with slavic population.



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Serbias national hero, Karadorde was of Albanian origin according to Serbian Dimitri Tucovic. Karadorde's friend was also an Albanian from Nish, who apparently had saved Karadordes life. Prior to the early 20th century or around like that, the populaton turned Albanian naturally. There was never any great migration. Serbs never cared about Kosovo neither did they ever claim it as theirs. These type of Nationalistic myths that they are the saviors of Europe and Christianity and that every Muslim is an enemy and Ottoman collaborate started appearing in the 20th century by Serbian writers. and are of course based on myths because both the Bosniak Muslims and the Muslim Albanians fought against the Ottomans. The Ottomans even plotted to exterminate the Albanian Muslims. The Ultra Chavunist ''feelings'' Serbs have for Kosovo I can tell you is recent, not any older than 100 years old, which led to it's colonization/occupation in 1912 with a predominant Albanian population even at that time, and which is what sparked the Albanian-Serbian conflict.
tucovic isnt historian.
Serb cared for ksovo all time and its well presented in their poetry and in poetry and kulture of monetnego.
Serbian "occupation" was liberation for remaining Serbs.

Local muslims fought against reforms of ottoman turkey which tried to elevate status of christian population on detriment of local muslim landlord elite.Christians were second rate citizens

[/QUOTE]
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These Ultra Chavunist writers started refering to the Battle of Kosovo and how Serbs fought against Muslims. In this battle you even had Albanian, Hungarians, Bosniaks etc
lol no.this is quite modern mostlz pushed bz pro albanian writers,most you can say is that were albnain mercenaries but not they were any important element in army.find me original document from time period which talks of massive albanian participatation or that battle of ksovo was battle of alliance of numerous states and not just serbia and bosnia vs turks.


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So basically Serbs are self-proclaimed saviors. It's not how eveyone needs to see it. Everyone has fought and conquered and subjogated. What is the difference between Ottomans expanding into the Balkans and Slavs? Byzantium fought for control of Kosovo, Bulgarians, Serbians, Ottomans, Albanians etc. As a matter of fact, Albanian Dukagjinis liberated Western Kosovo from the Ottomans for some time during the 15th century. This was atleast 100 years after the Battle of Kosovo. So last time parts of todays Kosovo was under Balkan occupation, it was under Albanian occupation. How at the end of the day are Serbs the saviors? These are Ultra Nationalistic myths.
they want land on which they had historical presence and from which tehy were pressured out.they also have monuments to prove their claim unlike albanians which on otherr hand claim eternal presence but left nothing to prove it except claimed links with ilirians which themself were not unified group but diffrent tribes.

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As for Kosovo being cultural center of Serbs for 1200 years, I can tell you the region was described as Bulgarian under Bulgarian occupation. Serb medieval state held it ca for 200-250 years. It was Serbian for 200-250 years. It was Ottoman for 500 years or something. That's Ottoman influence for 500 years. Do you know what a continuity is? There is no continuity when it was 500 years under Ottoman occupation. That's a break of 500 years. That's not a continuity. 500 years is a long time.
kosov is region with most serbian cultural monuments even greater than rest of serbia,that talks about cultural improtance of region.bulgarian rule doesnt imply local slavs were bulgarians themselves.
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