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Old July 16th, 2016, 06:46 AM   #1
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What makes Kosovo a Serbian land and why should it join Serbia?


I wanna know what makes Kosovo Serbian?

Out of all the empires that held it and all the people that stepped foot in that land;

Bulgarians, Albanians, Romans, Byzantines, Greeks, Vlachs, Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Turks, Ottomans. Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians etc

What makes Kosovo originally a Serbian land?

Albanians make up the majority of the region and did so when it was occupied by Serbia in 1912, forget about Albanian history or where Albanians came from. And show me why Kosovo was originally a Serbian land?

Explain to me why a Kosovo 90%++ inhabited by Albanians should join Serbia?

Serbs didn't originate in this land. They came there like everyone else, so what makes this land originally Serbian? Serbs moved in from their base Rashka into Kosovo, so it wasn't the cradle of the Serbs.

What should happen to the Albanians in Kosovo? That means more Albanians in Serbia? Albanians came there? So did everyone else? Should Albanians go back to Malsia? Why should they move? In that case why don't the small minority of Slavs there move? Prior to 1500 there were no Slavs in the Balkans to begin with. They were historically recorded to of come there, while there is no historical record of Albanians, so we assume Albanians came there before history was even recorded

I'm into genetics and there are Serbs who get Ukraine and Russia as their top countries of ancestry. Why don't they go back to Ukraine and Russia then if they are gonna tell others to move?

What makes Kosovo Serbian?

I still haven't seen a single credible arguement to this day.

The best I've seen is

''Serbs used to live in Kosovo'' - That doesn't make it originally Serbian land. Bulgarians used to live there too, that doesn't make it Bulgarian land.

''It was part of the Serb medieval state'' - And so? It was also part of the Bulgarian empire, Roman Empire, Byzantium Empire, prior to that and also Ottoman Empire and even some Albanian principalities like the Dukagjini.

''Kosovo is a Slavic word'' - So? That doesn't mean it's Serbian. There is no Serbian language to begin with.

''There are Serbian Churches in Kosovo'' - The Serb medieval state, that ceased to exist 500 years ago, was the last Christian empire to colonize it. Most of these churches are leftovers from then and prior to that the region had a history from before, Romans, Byzantiums, etc and many of these Churches even date back to then.

So what makes Kosovo a Serbian land and why should Kosovo join Serbia? Because I keep hearing Serbs say ''Kosovo is Serbia'' ?
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Old July 16th, 2016, 06:55 AM   #2
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This is from Noel Malcolm, the author of ''Kosovo: a Short History''. I advice anyone who wants to learn more about this conflict to buy and read the book.

Quote:



Is Kosovo Serbia? We ask a historian.

"Kosovo is Serbia", "Ask any historian" read the unlikely placards, waved by angry Serb demonstrators in Brussels on Sunday. This is rather flattering for historians: we don't often get asked to adjudicate. It does not, however, follow that any historian would agree, not least because historians do not use this sort of eternal present tense.

History, for the Serbs, started in the early 7th century, when they settled in the Balkans. Their power base was outside Kosovo, which they fully conquered in the early 13th, so the claim that Kosovo was the "cradle" of the Serbs is untrue.

What is true is that they ruled Kosovo for about 250 years, until the final Ottoman takeover in the mid-15th century. Churches and monasteries remain from that period, but there is no more continuity between the medieval Serbian state and today's Serbia than there is between the Byzantine Empire and Greece.

Kosovo remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb
population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.

But legally, Kosovo was not incorporated into the Serbian kingdom in 1912; it remained occupied territory until some time after 1918. Then, finally, it was incorporated, not into a Serbian state, but into a Yugoslav one. And with one big interruption (the second world war) it remained part of some sort of Yugoslav state until June 2006.

Until the destruction of the old federal Yugoslavia by Milosevic, Kosovo had a dual status. It was called a part of Serbia; but it was also called a unit of the federation. In all practical ways, the latter sense prevailed: Kosovo had its own parliament and government, and was directly represented at the federal level, alongside Serbia. It was, in fact, one of the eight units of the federal system.

Almost all the other units have now become independent states. Historically, the independence of Kosovo just completes that process. Therefore, Kosovo has become an ex-Yugoslav state, as any historian could tell you.
Noel Malcolm is a senior research fellow at All Souls College, Oxford. He is the author of Kosovo: A Short History

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20.../kosovo.serbia
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Old July 16th, 2016, 08:28 AM   #3
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Kosovo is by international treaties still part of Serbia including resoltuion 1244.More question is why it should be independent unklike other regions which want indepndence but are denied.

As for who shoudl go where-nobody is telling anybody tom move except extreme nationalists from both sides.but presently albanians are one forcing others to move not serbs.return of serb refugees is portrayed negatively
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics...4&nav_id=98309

1.Albanians become majority quite late with miration of serbs before violence commited by ottoman troops.albanians moved in nd exerted presure on remaing population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...tory_of_Kosovo

2.kosovo is conisdered serbian land because of historical events like ksovo battle and its place in serrbian mythology and national and cultural impiortance (cities/churches/monastaries) and fact it is reconised as part of its territory still by most world nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...zingKosovo.png



Quote:
This is from Noel Malcolm, the author of ''Kosovo: a Short History''. I advice anyone who wants to learn more about this conflict to buy and read the book.
only if you read other sources to see extent of his bias
http://www.kosovo.net/nmalk6.html

serbian sources are biased too for their side.so basically you have to read everythin to get glimpse of whole issue.

Last edited by Azatoth; July 16th, 2016 at 09:20 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 09:52 AM   #4
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Quote:
Kosovo is by international treaties still part of Serbia.More question is why it should be independent unklike other regions which want indepndence but are denied.
It's not part of Serbia, and should of actually never been. There is no continuity between todays Serbia, which gained it's independence from The Ottoman Empire in the 1800's and did not include todays Kosovo, and the Serb medieval state. That's like saying Turkey and Ottoman Empire are the same or Roman Empire and Italy are the same or that the Byzantine Empire and Greece are the same. It's just untrue.

It should be independent Because Serbia invaded it in 1912 and the population was described as Albanian by a Serbian soldier named Dimitrije Tucovic. He wrote books about it describing the massacres of Albanians by Serb forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrije_Tucovi%C4%87

''After the outbreak of the Balkan wars 1912, he was mobilized in the Serbian army and participated in the Serbian military campaign in Albania.[2] He sent letters from the front about war crimes against civil population which were regularly published in the Worker's Newspaper.[4] Writing of the massacres of Albanians during the Serbian takeover of Kosovo from Turkey (1912), he stated:


Captain Dimitrije Tucović
“ We have carried out the attempted premeditated murder of an entire nation. We were caught in that criminal act and have been obstructed. Now we have to suffer the punishment.... In the Balkan Wars, Serbia not only doubled its territory, but also its external enemies.[5]''

He published several books after.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massac...he_Balkan_Wars

Quote:
As for who shoudl go where-nobody is telling anybody tom move except extreme nationalists from both sides.but presently albanians are one forcing others to move not serbs.return of serb refugees is portrayed negatively
Pristina vows to stop building of Serb returnee settlement - Politics - on B92.net
Serbs are a minority and have been so for hundreds of years according to statistics. Even when it was part of Serbia from 1912 to 1999 Serbs were still a minority despite trying to colonize Kosovo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugosl...tion_of_Kosovo

''The colonisation of Kosovo was a programme implemented by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia during the interwar period (1918–1941) with the aim of altering the ethnic population balance in the region where Albanians formed an ethnic majority.[1] During the colonisation period, between 60,000 and 65,000 colonists, of whom over 90% were Serbs, settled on the territory of the former Kosovo Vilayet captured from the Ottoman Empire in 1912.[2][3] Along with the Serb colonisation, a policy of forced migration of ethnic Albanians was attempted, enlisting the participation of Turkey.[4]''




Quote:
1.Albanians become majority quite late with miration of serbs before violence commited by ottoman troops.albanians moved in nd exerted presure on remaing population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...tory_of_Kosovo
Serbs commited violence themselves on the indigenous populations and the lands they colonized. Serbs moved into Kosovo from Rashka. The Balkans was also invaded by Slavs and Avars led by Attila that plundered the indigenous population and regions like Kosovo were depopulated of it's indigenous populations. What happened to them? They were pushed into the mountains of Albania and Montenegro, but that's irrelevant. You can read more about this in the book ''The fall of the late Roman Empire''.

Serb medieval state stretched all the way down to Northern Greece. Although I stress that this wasn't a pure Serbian empire but a multi ethnic one with a Slavic language and Christian Orthodoxy as it's language, just like the Roman Empire was a multi ethnic one with latin language and later on Catholism as the religion. Ottoman empire was also a multi-ethnic one etc.

Orthodox Slavicized Albanians and Vlachs were subjects of the Serbian empire.

This is a map of the Serb medieval state at it's greatest:


Click the image to open in full size.



So Albanians arrived late? But this map tells me that it was Serbs who came to Albanians, and even todays Albania and Montenegro were part of Serb Empire. So what stopped an Albanian to move into Kosovo then? Its actually Serbs who moved into these lands that are today called Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, FYROM... they colonized these lands and pushed Albanians into the mountains, the rest were Slavicized. So why do people talk about immigration of Albanians when that is irrelevant?



The way I see it, it's Serbs that have been the aggressors, although I stress that there isn't any continuity between this empire and modern Serbia like there isn't between Ottomans and Turkey really or Byzantium and Greece

Quote:
2.kosovo is conisdered serbian land because of historical relations and national and cultural impiortance and fact it is reconised as part of its territory still by most world nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...zingKosovo.png
Kosovo had history and culture prior to Serbs. It was part of the Romans, Byzantiums, Bulgarians etc. When Serbs took it over and moved in they made these churches Serbian. Where are all the churches from Byzantium? Where is all it's culture?

The Serb medieval state did not even hold it the longest. Bulgarians held it for a long time, the Ottomans held it for 500 years and there is Ottoman culture left from then.

So what makes it anymore Serbian than these? by 1912 Serbs did not even live in many lands they once colonized. Serbs used to live in todays Albania, FYROM too, does that make it Serbian? By 1912 Kosovo was mostly Albanian, was it justified for Serbia to invade an Albanian Kosovo because once upon a time it used to be part of some Serb medieval state? So used Albania, FYROM, Montenegro etc. Some of these they also invaded.


So what makes it Serbian? Are Serbs the indigenous population of Kosovo?

Quote:
opnly if you read other sources to see extent of his bias
Response to Noel Malcolm 6

serbian sources are biased too for their side.so basically you have to read everythin to get glimpse of whole issue.
What's biased about him? Can you point out some errors? I have read that site before, it's wrong and is absolutelt biased. It's based on nationalistic myths created in the 19th century. Noel Malcolm covers all these myths in his book.

Some of these myths are that every former Serbian colony belongs to Serbs. You can't claim lands that you once colonized when you don't inhabit them anymore.

Last edited by King Kong; July 16th, 2016 at 09:58 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 10:02 AM   #5

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Are you from Norway or from Italy, King Kong? ?

Truth now.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 10:05 AM   #6
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here is a map before that:

Click the image to open in full size.

You can see it was part of the Bulgarian Empire?

So basically Serbs colonized those lands Kosovo, Albania etc. they moved in. But today they don't live there anymore.

You can see in this map Kosovo was not part of Serbia. They took in around the 12th century if I'm correct and they held it for like 200 years before losing it again. So how is it Serbian?

You can see Rascia on the map, that's where Serbs migrated from and Southwards.

So what's the point of spilling so much blood for a land that never was Serbian to begin with?

Last edited by King Kong; July 16th, 2016 at 10:19 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 10:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotromanic View Post
Are you from Norway or from Italy, King Kong? ?

Truth now.
I'm from Norway.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 10:10 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kong View Post
I'm from Norway.
And also, is "King Kong" the only account you have used on this site?

There is a strong feeling of deja vu which the style of writing in this thread is bringing out. It is entirely possible that the feeling is ALL in my head, so if you can tell me "King Kong" is the only account you have used on this site, I'll return to the subject of the thread. I'll assume goodwill but expect an honest reply. Thank you.

Last edited by Kotromanic; July 16th, 2016 at 10:13 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 10:16 AM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotromanic View Post
And also, is "King Kong" the only account you have used on this site?

There is a strong feeling of deja vu which the style of writing in this thread is bringing out. It is entirely possible that the feeling is ALL in my head, so if you can tell me "King Kong" is the only account you have used on this site, I'll return to the subject of the thread. I'll assume goodwill but expect an honest reply. Thank you.
Are you suspecting that he has some sort of political agenda here?

With this kind of posts? No way…
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Old July 16th, 2016, 10:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotromanic View Post
And also, is "King Kong" the only account you have used on this site?

There is a strong feeling of deja vu which the style of writing in this thread is bringing out. It is entirely possible that the feeling is ALL in my head, so if you can tell me "King Kong" is the only account you have used on this site, I'll return to the subject of the thread. I'll assume goodwill but expect an honest reply. Thank you.

You can ask a mod to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulius View Post
Are you suspecting that he has some sort of political agenda here?

With this kind of posts? No way…
What is wrong with my posts? I came from another forum where some user claimed it was Serbian. So since they couldn't answer me I come here.

I don't need to have an agenda to believe what is right. I asked what makes this land originally Serbian when it is 90%++ Albanian inhabited and wasn't originally Serbian land to begin with?

Why should a Albanian inhabited Kosovo join Serbia? How is that even fair?

Just because it was part of some Serb medieval state?

I don't understand how this land is Serbian?


WHAT MAKES IT SERBIAN ORIGINALLY? Are Serbs Illyrians? The original population of Kosovo and it's preSlavic toponyms are actually connected to the Albanian language, but that's irrelevant.

Just look at FYROM, the North-West of it was Albanian but it was occupied by Slavs and later incorporated into Yugoslavia and Macedonia. Now today, in Macedonia, ALbanians there are slowly becoming the majority of the population. They have higher birthrates. So if Kosovo becomes part of Serbia, that would mean more Albanians in Serbia. Eventually Albanians could outbreed Serbs in Serbia too.

Last edited by King Kong; July 16th, 2016 at 10:28 AM.
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