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Old August 4th, 2016, 11:31 PM   #1

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Greeks real origin?


In "The invention of jewish people " by Shlomo Sand i noticed that the author
briefly mentions a study that would demonstrate that greek people is not formed by offsping of ancient greeks but instaed they were originitated from balcanic tribes or similar (i don't remember).What do you think about the origin of greek people?
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Old August 5th, 2016, 01:15 AM   #2
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Apparently the hinterland of Greece got severely overrun by the Slavic vassals (goat herders) of the Avars in the early 7th century AD. Major towns (civilized centers) with defenses would have remained in Greek hands. So over time Greek became the dominant language amongst the new settlers.

The "Greek people" who spoke Greek and brought the language to the peninsular during the bronze age, were a nordic people (brawling drunks) very close to what we imagine as "Celts". Hence the Indo-Europeans that spread Westwards into Asia minor, Greece, Italy, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany, could perhaps be called "proto-Celtic". Although Celts proper were a later cultural development. They seem to have been commonly red-haired going by the grave finds of Greek Ptolemaic soldiers and settlers in Egypt. Not good in the strong Sun!
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Old August 5th, 2016, 04:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Mr Higson View Post
Apparently the hinterland of Greece got severely overrun by the Slavic vassals (goat herders) of the Avars in the early 7th century AD. Major towns (civilized centers) with defenses would have remained in Greek hands. So over time Greek became the dominant language amongst the new settlers.

The "Greek people" who spoke Greek and brought the language to the peninsular during the bronze age, were a nordic people (brawling drunks) very close to what we imagine as "Celts". Hence the Indo-Europeans that spread Westwards into Asia minor, Greece, Italy, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany, could perhaps be called "proto-Celtic". Although Celts proper were a later cultural development. They seem to have been commonly red-haired going by the grave finds of Greek Ptolemaic soldiers and settlers in Egypt. Not good in the strong Sun!
I find that very hard to believe. Not even the first Proto-indo-europeans were "Nordic looking" as most of them were black/dark brown haired with brown eyes.
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Old August 5th, 2016, 04:20 AM   #4

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Brawling drunks? I like it, sounds like me 20 years ago.

Not much to do with it but I was reading this week that the more southerly communities of 'Spain' drank wine by choice during Phoenician and early Roman times, whereas the northern types, more indo-european based, preferred beer!

Until the Romans sort of evened everything out over time I suppose.
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Old August 5th, 2016, 06:39 AM   #5
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Not really a origin story, but there were a lot of Albanians in Greece at the time of independence. I'm not sure what happened to them.
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Old August 5th, 2016, 06:49 AM   #6

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The racist 19th Century Northern European myth that the Romans and Greeks were fair-haired and fair-skinned Nordic types raises its ugly head once again.

One need only look to ancient Roman and Greek art to dispel that notion. They portrayed themselves and their gods, who are ultimately created in man's image, as largely Mediterranean in appearance.

The ancient peoples of Greece and Italy looked much like the people that inhabit those counties today. Not surprising really, since the modern peoples of those countries are in large part their descendants.

Click the image to open in full size.

Depiction of Alexander the Great, from the House of the Faun in Pompeii

Except for the costume, Alexander in that mosaic is indistinguishable from a modern Greek man.

Last edited by Scaeva; August 5th, 2016 at 06:58 AM.
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Old August 5th, 2016, 07:13 AM   #7

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaeva View Post
The racist 19th Century Northern European myth that the Romans and Greeks were fair-haired and fair-skinned Nordic types raises its ugly head once again.

One need only look to ancient Roman and Greek art to dispel that notion. They portrayed themselves and their gods, who are ultimately created in man's image, as largely Mediterranean in appearance.

The ancient peoples of Greece and Italy looked much like the people that inhabit those counties today. Not surprising really, since the modern peoples of those countries are in large part their descendants.

Click the image to open in full size.

Depiction of Alexander the Great, from the House of the Faun in Pompeii

Except for the costume, Alexander in that mosaic is indistinguishable from a modern Greek man.
+1

The ancient Greeks are hardly different from the ones currently residing in the country now.
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Old August 5th, 2016, 07:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Scaeva View Post
The racist 19th Century Northern European myth that the Romans and Greeks were fair-haired and fair-skinned Nordic types raises its ugly head once again. (...)
But this is not completely a myth.

Alexander the Great of Macedon was famously described as a blond-haired man.

There were also other blondes in Ancient Greece:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#Southern_Europe

The same is true for Italics. Roman nicknames (cognomina) often described how people looked like. Wilhem Sieglin counted among famous Romans, 158 people with nicknames suggesting blond hair (7 Flavi, 20 Flaviani, 10 Fulvi, 121 Fulvii) and 171 with nicknames suggesting red hair (27 Rubrii, 26 Rufi, 24 Rufii, 36 Rufini, 45 Rutilii, 13 Ahenobarbi). Francis Owen, on the other hand, counted as many as 250 blond-haired Flavii among well-known Romans. Among Emperors, the following ones surely had red or blond hair: Octavian Augustus, Nero (subflavo), Caligula (aurea barba), Vitelius (πυρράκης), Domitian (ξανθός), Trajan (caesaries) and Commodus (ουλόξανθος). A redhead was also Cato the Elder, while Sulla was a blonde.

Many pieces of Ancient Greek art show Northern-looking people:



Check also these interesting articles:

Roots of the Bronze Age | Freyia Völundarhúsins

Quote:
The dawn of the Scandinavian Bronze Age has been traced back to the 16th century B.C and lasted for a thousand years before it was gradually evolved into the Iron Age of the fifth century B.C. The population of Scandinavia of that time is supposed to have consisted of a fusion of groups native to the area from the earliest Neolithic period and of immigrant groups known as the “Battle Axe people” who apparently emerged from east-central Europe and who settled in the Baltic and in Scandinavia during the Neolithic period. Hallmarks of their culture were the battle-axes and individual burials.

It is possible that these were the people who brought with them the Indo-European language and culture to Scandinavia, although there is no certain evidence for this since we do not know what kind of language was being used by the Neolithic and by the Bronze-Age peoples. Indo-European language and culture was certainly dominant in Scandinavia by the time of the Iron Age.

That it was so even in the Bronze Age seems very plausible, also that there were certain likenesses in culture between the Scandinavian upper classes and those of southern Europe such as the aristocratic Greeks who produced the heroic poetry of the Iliad and the Odyssey. There was certainly a great deal of trade and travel between the North and South during the Bronze Age, and even ideas and cultic practice were being exchanged.
And:

Dienekes? Anthropology Blog: Links between Mycenaeans and Scandinavia

Quote:
Artifacts from royal burial graves Gamma and Omicron of grave circle B at Mycenae attest to cultural ties between the Eastern Mediterranean elite and that of the Scandinavian Early Bronze Age (mid- and late 2nd millennium BC). The appearance of the running spiral motif and representations of ships with rams in Scandinavia coincide with the beginning of the Mycenaean civilization. (...) the finds of Baltic amber only in the royal burials at Mycenae but not in Crete (...)
Also Felice Vinci suggested such links ("The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ba...27s_Epic_Tales

Quote:
Felice Vinci is a nuclear engineer, amateur historian and author of The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales, The Illiad, The Odyssey and The Migration of Myth. William Mullen received his BA in Classics from Harvard College and his PhD from the University of Texas. He was a Professor or post-doctoral Fellow at Berkeley, Princeton, Boston University, and Harvard's Center for Hellenic Studies and St. John's College. Dr. Mullen settled in the Classics Department at Bard College in 1985. Felice shares compelling evidence that the events of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey took place in the Baltic and not the Mediterranean. For years scholars have debated the incongruities in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, given that his descriptions are at odds with the geography of the areas he purportedly describes. Felice and Bill discuss how a climate change forced the migration of a people and their myth to ancient Greece. Felice identifies the true geographic sites of Troy and Ithaca in the Baltic Sea and Calypso's Isle in the North Atlantic Ocean. We'll hear where the story suggests that the events took place in the Baltic, such as Ulysses' journey along what sounds like the coasts of Norway. Also, we talk about why some tribes in Northern Europe might have stayed during the climate change. Later, we compare Homeric poems with Viking mythology to find similarities and compare Greco-Roman Gods and Goddesses to Norse Gods and Goddesses. Felice Vinci offers a key to open many doors that allow us to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective.
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Old August 5th, 2016, 07:24 AM   #9
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Red hair was also not unseen in Ancient Southern Europe:

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Several Thracian graves or tombstones have the name Rufus inscribed on them, meaning "redhead" – a common name given to people with red hair.[46] Ancient Greek artwork often depicts Thracians as redheads.[47] Rhesus of Thrace, a mythological Thracian King, derived his name because of his red hair and is depicted on Greek pottery as having red hair and beard.[47] Ancient Greek writers also described the Thracians as red haired. A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired:

...Men make gods in their own image; those of the Ethiopians are black and snub-nosed, those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair.[48]

Bacchylides described Theseus as wearing a hat with red hair, which classicists believe was Thracian in origin.[49] Other ancient writers who described the hair of the Thracians as red include.... Hecataeus of Miletus,[50] Galen,[51] Clement of Alexandria,[52] and Julius Firmicus Maternus.[53]
A fresco of a red-haired Thracian woman in the Ostrusha mound in Central Bulgaria:

Click the image to open in full size.

Etruscan Tomb Paintings - ethnic Etruscan dancer (dark one) and ethnic Latin dancer (white one):

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old August 5th, 2016, 07:25 AM   #10
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Depiction of Alexander the Great, from the House of the Faun in Pompeii
This depiction was created long after Alexander's death.

Contemporary sources described Alexander as a blonde.
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