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Old November 1st, 2016, 02:58 AM   #131
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Caninus is a withering tree standing alone on a plain. His parents died in their prime and possibly his siblings also. Gildas then asks if Caninus will live to be a hundred or to the age of Methuselah (who lived to be 969). So I think the implication is that he is an isolated and elderly king. There isn`t any indication as far as I`m aware that either king killed family members.
It`s possible of course that the two royal youths murdered by Constantine were relatives but I don`t think the translations I`ve read infer it.
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Old November 1st, 2016, 03:26 AM   #132
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This is all new to me. There is a groundswell of opinion of course that Geoffrey or his lost source made most of it up. Unless I`m missing something here, this is convincing evidence that Uther, Igraine and Hoel were indeed figments of Geoffrey`s imagination and had no place in Arthurian legend before the eleventh century.
I`m going to rein myself in a little . There clearly was an early Hoel who had associations with Brittany and Dyfed so he can`t be easily cast aside. But the whole Uther, Igraine ,Gorlois menage a trois can be discarded with confidence and had no association with the earliest legend.
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Old November 1st, 2016, 04:54 AM   #133
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Why no more King Arthurs???


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Thanks, your post was pretty interesting. There may well have been intentional inter-linkings.
The "Arthur" i was referring to though was the one of the 12 battles "Nennius"/'Historia Britonum', (which predates Geoff and Alan,) and those 9 battle sites positively match the Saxon Shore sites from Yarmouth to Portchester.




Arthur has some sort of connection with Count of the Saxon shore, so he may have been either/both count and/or dux.

Duce Ambrosius (Gildas DEB)
Dux Bellorum Arthur ("Nennius" HB)
Dux Pictorum Arthur (Floridus)
Dux Britanniarum (ND)



Mary of Guinnion/Badon is linked with Mary of Dover/Braddon.
Arthur's shoulder seems to link with the W & E Heights &/or Downs &/or Cliffs there, and the shield seems to link with the Weald/Caledon ("coverts") &/or Downs. Though there has also been found cross broach there from them too. See the 12 battles paper for more accurate & better details.



There are many reputed resting places of Arthur including Baschurch, [Eldon?] Alderley Edge? Glastonbury.

The real location is Reculver and specifically the Reculver Cross.
Reculver = Bassas = "Baschurch"
Reculver = Bassas = Afarnach's (Pa Gur) = Afallach/Avalon (in North Sea in Irish).
Reculver has link with Glastonbury.
Reculver Cross = Levitating Altar (Wonders) = Arthur's grave?
(Appled Ash may = Reculver?)
Camlan seems to be either near Richborough or at Sutton Hood. Some sources have Arthur dying at/near city of Lions [Richborough].
Lots of other evidences/links too.



I love collecting all extant 12 battles theories.

The 12 battles 9 battle sites positively match the 9 Saxon Shore sites. No other theory has a match with an attested group of nine numbered sites all in order (excepting cross-switch match of 5th & 6th sites which is apparent/attested in/between different sources including HB & PaGur).



Not sure if you mean castle of St Suzanne matches Badon or castellum Guinnion? (3 days ~ 3 years?)
Guinnion of "Nennius"/'HB' = Dover (the Eidyn 2 of PaGur (there is an Edinburgh at Dover));
One of Guinnion's meanings is "white". Other meanings also connect with Dover.
Badon of Gildas seems to match Guinnion of "Nennius" and Dover/Braddon.
Badon of "Nennius" = Portchester/Adurni (Welsh Tysilio has Badon near Winchester).

Regarding others posts:

"Arthur can be found pretty much anywhere if one is prepared to look hard enough."

I disagree. Our 9 sites match is very strong/certain. All others fall down.

Also, the 'Rhos' (& 'Meilros') ("headland"?) of traditional sources seems to be in vicinity of Richborough, not the later namesakes in Wales & Scotland. The "Welsh" named later sites after the earlier sites in the south-East.

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Richborough in Kent? Where Claudius landed? The subsequent Roman port from which Magnus Maximus set sail for Gaul?

I'm unconvinced by the "Avalon in Britain" theory. It's too much of a coincidence with the fact that Riothamus fled to the isle of Avallon in Roman-allied Burgundy.


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Old November 1st, 2016, 05:03 AM   #134
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I`m going to rein myself in a little . There clearly was an early Hoel who had associations with Brittany and Dyfed so he can`t be easily cast aside. But the whole Uther, Igraine ,Gorlois menage a trois can be discarded with confidence and had no association with the earliest legend.

Agreed.
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Old November 1st, 2016, 09:36 AM   #135

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An Arthur is anyway coming ...


Even if Prince Charles will be King Charles something, he is Charles Philip Arthur George ...

I know this is an insult to the conception of Pendragon itself [I challenge everybody to call Prince Charles "Pendragon" ... please ...], but He will be a King Arthur. With good peace of all Britons.
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Old November 1st, 2016, 03:53 PM   #136
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But the whole Uther, Igraine ,Gorlois menage a trois can be discarded with confidence and had no association with the earliest legend.
Why do you say that?
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Old November 1st, 2016, 03:57 PM   #137
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Why no more King Arthurs???


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Why do you say that?

Provenance. If someone presents you with a print of a painting claimed to be by Rembrandt, yet it is unlike previously known Rembrandt works and there is no record of anyone ever seeing such a Rembrandt painting, and no hard evidence for how the print was produced, we must be suspicious of a recent fake.


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Old November 1st, 2016, 04:06 PM   #138
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Provenance. If someone presents you with a print of a painting claimed to be by Rembrandt, yet it is unlike previously known Rembrandt works and there is no record of anyone ever seeing such a Rembrandt painting, and no hard evidence for how the print was produced, we must be suspicious of a recent fake.
That's not a very strong analogy.

Uther killing Gorlois, if it happened, was an event, not a painting with a 'style' to be noted. Furthermore, if Arthur existed, then he obviously had a father, and that father probably did stuff, yet we self-evidently don't have independent sources for what that father did (unless we do but it just isn't widely recognised, as I believe) so I don't think the lack of earlier sources is a strong argument.
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Old November 1st, 2016, 05:11 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by zoetropo View Post
Richborough in Kent? Where Claudius landed? The subsequent Roman port from which Magnus Maximus set sail for Gaul?

I'm unconvinced by the "Avalon in Britain" theory. It's too much of a coincidence with the fact that Riothamus fled to the isle of Avallon in Roman-allied Burgundy.
The thing is, the 12 battles 9 battle sites absolutely positively match the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Yarmouth to Portsmouth (an attested group of 9 sites) all in numeric & geographical order.
"Nennius" work is 'Historia Britonum' and the Britain he meant is certainly Great Britain not Little Britain/Brittany.
There are tons of evidences that "Arthur" is British not ["French"], and that the battles are in Britain (& Saxon Shore) not France.

"Coincidences" can/do happen and usually we eventually find explanations.
The case for Saxon Shore is far stronger than any other scenarios/theories. The case for France is not so strong.

Riothamus was [470?]. "Arthur" fought Cerdic/Saxons in early to mid 500s, in the "no gains gap", and the gap between Bretwaldas.

We already gave some good evidences for Avalon = Reculver (Cross). Morecan be seen in 12 battles paper in 3rd chapter on Bassas = Reculver.

Yes Richborough/Rutupiae the city, the base for awhile of Legion 2 Augusta, matches the 6th battle site the City of the Legion of "Nennius". See the 12 battles paper chapter on it for the evidences.

Anyone that is actually objectively interested in considering our evidences can see out 12 battles paper at The 12 Battles of Arthur Found - All Empires - EBooks & also Wonders paper at Wonders of Britain found - All Empires - EBooks .

rough table:
9 HB/"Nennius" sites - 9 PaGur battles - 9 ND/SS forts - # Actual sites
[n.a.] - [n.a.] - 1 Branodunum - 0/1 Brancaster
1 Glein - 1 Tribruit1 - 2 Garianonum - 1/2 Burgh/Caistor/Yarmouth
2/2-5 Dubglas/Linnuis - 2 Eidyn1 - 3 Othona/L... - 2/3 Bradwell/Blackwater
3/6 Bassas - # Afarnach - 4 Regulbium/Baetasiorum - # Reculver
4/7 Celidon/Godeu - # Celli - [n.a] - # Coldrum/Kit'sCoty/Weald
5/8 Gunnion/Badon1a - # Eidyn2 - 6 Dubris - # Dover/Edinburgh/Braddon
6/9 Legions - # Dissethach - 5 Rutupiae/Legio - # Richborough
7/10 Tribruit - 7 Tribruit2 - 7 Lemanis - # Stutfall/Lympne
8/11 Agned/Bregion - 8 Ystawinguin - 8 Anderida - # Pevensey/Hastings
9/12 Badon1b - 9 Mon - 9 Adurni/Clausentum - 8/9/10 Portchester/Bitterne.

http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress...-9fortsss2.png
http://historum.com/attachments/medi...elots-arth.jpg

Obviously i have to let it go as it seems no one ever wants to consider, or being stopped by powers or God, or i am expected to have to also answer every possible objection or alternative before accepted, or paper still not written reeader-friendly enough.

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Old November 1st, 2016, 05:41 PM   #140
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That's not a very strong analogy.



Uther killing Gorlois, if it happened, was an event, not a painting with a 'style' to be noted. Furthermore, if Arthur existed, then he obviously had a father, and that father probably did stuff, yet we self-evidently don't have independent sources for what that father did (unless we do but it just isn't widely recognised, as I believe) so I don't think the lack of earlier sources is a strong argument.

Uther killing Gorlois isn't an event, it's a story, a word-painting.

How did this story reach us? An answer to this will be very revealing.


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