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Old December 10th, 2012, 02:11 PM   #181

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So the Roman Empire did not end neither in 476 nor in 1453, but in 1806? perhaps it is not that simple!?
Depend which Roman empire as we all know there was more than one. And fact that they all somehow traced their origin, justifiably or not to the first one is irrelevant.

So yes, one of the "Roman" empires indeed did ended in 1806.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #182
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To Beorna: You said that if somebody quoted a medieval text with regnum Czechorum or could show Czech diplomata using the term you would accept it. I quoted a Latin chronicle, a German chronicle, and ALL Czech medieval texts use only this term, but you are still not accepting it... Please quote a medieval source making difference between "Czech" and "Bohemian". I dare to say you won't find any. This difference is a concept of the 19th century ("Bohemians" subdivided into "Czechs" and "Germans"), you may find some texts from the 18th century, but hardly earlier. Before that, Ethnic Czechs were called Bohemians in Western languages, their language Bohemian and their state Bohemia. It doesn't matter that a very significant part of the population was German - Middle Ages were not very democratic, obviously. The medieval Hungarian state was also centered around the Magyar ethnos despite the fact that Magyars/Hungarians proper were probably just a minority.
In all medieval chronicles in Poland, Czech state was called Czech Kingdom. In Battle of Grunwald, Czech contingent was called Czech ,not Bohemian. Bohemia name was samtime used to describe the region, never the nation.

Last edited by Edward; December 10th, 2012 at 02:22 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 02:45 PM   #183
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Oh, this is very difficult, because the territory changed a lot and there is no verifiable data. In the middle of the 18th century it were perhaps around 18 million on the territory of recent germany and as high as before the 30y war. In Württemberg it were e.g. 450,000 people in 1623, in 1639 only 97,000 people and in 1730 again 425,000. In the territory of recent germany there were perhaps 5-6 million in 1000 and 13-14 million in the 14th century.
Yes i can imagine, it is particularily difficult to determine for a highly decentralized states as was the HRE, but still thanks.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #184
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I just saw an interesting example from the 12th century - the Byzantine chronicler John Kinnamos calls king Vladislav who participated in the 2nd crusade "the king of the Czechs" (Tzechon in Greek, ie the language used). In the later Latin translations of the chronicle it is translated as "rex Tzechorum".
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Old December 12th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #185

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In all medieval chronicles in Poland, Czech state was called Czech Kingdom. In Battle of Grunwald, Czech contingent was called Czech ,not Bohemian. Bohemia name was samtime used to describe the region, never the nation.
In which one? In the latin texts it is called Regnum Bohemorum. In Polish it was always land of Czechs but translation into latin was always Regnum Bohemorum. And all Polish medieval chronicles are written in latin.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #186
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In which one? In the latin texts it is called Regnum Bohemorum. In Polish it was always land of Czechs but translation into latin was always Regnum Bohemorum. And all Polish medieval chronicles are written in latin.
E.g "Kronika Polska Stanislawa Chwalczewskiego,starosty kobrynskiego dziedzica Raskowskiego pisana 1549."
It is little bit past Mid Age but it will do as an example.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #187
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By the way, Czech Kingdom is called “Ingiltere Cek” in Turkish language
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Old December 12th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #188
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In which one? In the latin texts it is called Regnum Bohemorum. In Polish it was always land of Czechs but translation into latin was always Regnum Bohemorum. And all Polish medieval chronicles are written in latin.
True, the literature in Polish starts to flourish in the Renaissance period... but I mentioned already the Latin Chronicle of Greater Poland from 1295 where the name of the land is mentioned as "regnum Czechorum quit et Bohemi" (kingdom of Czechs who are also called Bohemians").
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Old December 12th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #189
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True, the literature in Polish starts to flourish in the Renaissance period... but I mentioned already the Latin Chronicle of Greater Poland from 1295 where the name of the land is mentioned as "regnum Czechorum quit et Bohemi" (kingdom of Czechs who are also called Bohemians").
yes, It was in Latin. But the great folk legend about Lech, Czech and Rus come from this chronicle. It is difficult to say that the 13 century folks will say Lech, Bohemian and Russ. Not a chance.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:13 PM   #190

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Originally Posted by Czechicus View Post
I just saw an interesting example from the 12th century - the Byzantine chronicler John Kinnamos calls king Vladislav who participated in the 2nd crusade "the king of the Czechs" (Tzechon in Greek, ie the language used). In the later Latin translations of the chronicle it is translated as "rex Tzechorum".
The first germans came already in the 11th century, but the main migration was under Ottokar I., Wenzel I and especially Wenzel II. So the mentioning of vladislav II. on the 2nd crusade in 1147 was before the main German migration. Ioannes Kinnamos was a contemporary chronicer, so I don't see how it contradicts with my saying. I never claimed, that the Czechs are not allowed to be claimed Czechs, but Bohemians. Nevertheless was it Frederic barbarossa, who allowed Vladislav to be crowned as king for his service for him.
We have different periods of the history of Bohemia. For the early phase there is generally no problem to call the reign a Czech ducatus (but as well no to call it Bohemian) or for some short period Czech kingdom. Perhaps from Podiebrad till Ludwig II we had something that would come close to a Czech state, but the reign also included Hungary and Croatia. So was it really a Czech state, why not a Hungarian?
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