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Old December 13th, 2012, 01:54 AM   #201

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
......
We all got new chance and now 70 years after the unfortunate events so we can start over and we are starting again but permanent complains showing Germans as victims of Czechoslovak policy will definitely not to help to improve our relations which are nearly awesome last decades.
We simply have to accept our responsibilities nad we have to stop to search mistakes on other sides otherwise we will never move from the place...
I really couldn't see, that you accepted responsibility. And how do you call the german civilians who were killed after 1945? How can you state things like those above, when you wrote in another thread, that the expelled germans hadn't had a right to stay in the Czech republic because they weren't living there for long? Have you changed your opnion or do you just say it this way and in another case in another way?
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:02 AM   #202
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Just few remarks to Beorna:

1. You say that the term "Czech" is ethnic and exclusive, and that´s why it can´t be applied to the medieval Bohemia. But why not? I am not trying to be polically correct, but factually correct. And the fact is that also medieval elites could think and act in ethnic and exclusive terms. And so they did in Bohemia and Moravia, or at least tried to.

2. Czech state under the Habsburg rule: I think that the breaking point was 1627, when the Renewed Land Constitution was published (in 1628 for Moravia), absolutism prevailed over the nobility and German was introduced as the 2nd language after Czech (still called Bohemian) as the language of the Diet, but with time, German became more important than Czech. But Czech was still used as a symbol, sessions of the diet were opened in Czech, and the old founding mythology was remembered. For the protestant emigrants, it certainly remained legally Czech (Pavel Stránský in his treatise "Res Public Bojema" - about the Czech state, uses also the term Czechia in Latin and insists on the Czech character of the state). But with the time, it became only a claim without a basis, because the Czech nobility was expelled or lost its powers, the centre of the Habsburg (who considered Bohemian crown to be a conquered territory after 1620) power shifted to Vienna, and with the pragmatic sanction and the unification of the Bohemian and Austrian chancery in the 18th century, there was no strong and unified elite to back the "Czech" claim.

3. Yes, emperors and kings were often the same person, but the royal Bohemian chancery and the imperial chancery were very clearly different institutions, and it was always, even in the 17th and 18th century, differentiated if a charter was issued in the name of the King of Bohemia or in the name of the Roman Emperor. Sometimes the same charter was issued twice - for the Empire and for Bohemia separately.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:03 AM   #203

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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
I really couldn't see, that you accepted responsibility. And how do you call the german civilians who were killed after 1945? How can you state things like those above, when you wrote in another thread, that the expelled germans hadn't had a right to stay in the Czech republic because they weren't living there for long? Have you changed your opnion or do you just say it this way and in another case in another way?
Beorna? Again? This debate has not too much to do with Czech kingdom but with Democratic Czechoslovak Republic. Ok you again mentioning after ww2 results but you totally ignore its causes.
Germans were expelled because they betrayed their own democratic country. 90% of Czech Germans joined nazi party, voted for Third Reich citizenship and attacked their own democratical structures, principles and authorities and yes, they were civilians. So we can say 90% of Germans in prewar Czechoslovakia voluntarily decided to become nazis.

After these events allies decided about expelling wihich was performed by Czechoslovak authorities.

If you say B (expelling) you have to say A..(causes) but you usually ignore them because crimes of nazi Germans are not in your point of interest. Thats all and please move this debate to a proper thread.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:14 AM   #204
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A quote from the English Universal History (mid-18th century):

The states of Bohemia have never been comprehended in the government, or in the circles of the empire ; they are not subject to any of its jurisdictions, nor to the Roman months, taxes, or publick contributions; and they owe nothing to the empire but what the emperor Leopold voluntarily imposed upon himself, which amounts to 6000 livres a year for the imperial chamber. The king pays homage to the emperor and the empire for his states as first secular-elector, otherwise he has a right to exercise, through all the extent of his dominions, all authority that the royalty can give, provided he do not violate the laws of the kingdom, according to which he cannot raise contributions or taxes but at the time when the states are assembled, the appointing of which is entirely in their own power.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:47 AM   #205
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Yes, indeed. I misread it. That happens because I had too many bad experience here. I beg your pardon.
Accepted.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:02 AM   #206

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czechicus View Post
Just few remarks to Beorna:

1. You say that the term "Czech" is ethnic and exclusive, and that´s why it can´t be applied to the medieval Bohemia. But why not? I am not trying to be polically correct, but factually correct. And the fact is that also medieval elites could think and act in ethnic and exclusive terms. And so they did in Bohemia and Moravia, or at least tried to.
I don't said it can't AFAIR, but it shouldn't. I explained why.

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Originally Posted by Czechicus View Post
2. Czech state under the Habsburg rule: I think that the breaking point was 1627, when the Renewed Land Constitution was published (in 1628 for Moravia), absolutism prevailed over the nobility and German was introduced as the 2nd language after Czech (still called Bohemian) as the language of the Diet, but with time, German became more important than Czech. But Czech was still used as a symbol, sessions of the diet were opened in Czech, and the old founding mythology was remembered. For the protestant emigrants, it certainly remained legally Czech (Pavel Stránský in his treatise "Res Public Bojema" - about the Czech state, uses also the term Czechia in Latin and insists on the Czech character of the state). But with the time, it became only a claim without a basis, because the Czech nobility was expelled or lost its powers, the centre of the Habsburg (who considered Bohemian crown to be a conquered territory after 1620) power shifted to Vienna, and with the pragmatic sanction and the unification of the Bohemian and Austrian chancery in the 18th century, there was no strong and unified elite to back the "Czech" claim.
Yes, Czech was reduced after the 30y-war and as well protestantism. Among those who were expelled were as well not only Czechs, but german protestants, too. You described the situation in Bohemia quite well, so how would you like to call Bohemia under Austrian rule? Czech kingdom, too? That#s why i think Bohemian as neutral term is much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czechicus View Post
3. Yes, emperors and kings were often the same person, but the royal Bohemian chancery and the imperial chancery were very clearly different institutions, and it was always, even in the 17th and 18th century, differentiated if a charter was issued in the name of the King of Bohemia or in the name of the Roman Emperor. Sometimes the same charter was issued twice - for the Empire and for Bohemia separately.
Yes, but the same as above. Bohemian is not exclusive. So one can use it from the early Czech times to the modern era.

Perhaps we leave these discussion aside. When I made my statement, I didn'texpect it would cause such trouble.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:17 AM   #207

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Beorna? Again? This debate has not too much to do with Czech kingdom but with Democratic Czechoslovak Republic.
I am not talking about the CSR, but you as it seems.


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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Ok you again mentioning after ww2 results but you totally ignore its causes.
You start to claim again these nonsense. I demand, that you do not repeat this. We talked about it. So if you claim this here again, it is against better knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Germans were expelled because they betrayed their own democratic country. 90% of Czech Germans joined nazi party, voted for Third Reich citizenship and attacked their own democratical structures, principles and authorities and yes, they were civilians. So we can say 90% of Germans in prewar Czechoslovakia voluntarily decided to become nazis.
This is pure propaganda and if you hadn't derailed together with Edward the thread I had opened, we could have had discussed it. But I strongly suppose, that it was your both intention to let the thread be closed.


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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
After these events allies decided about expelling wihich was performed by Czechoslovak authorities.
Yes, of course. You were forced to and against your will, sure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
If you say B (expelling) you have to say A..(causes) but you usually ignore them because crimes of nazi Germans are not in your point of interest. Thats all and please move this debate to a proper thread.
I have asked you not to repeat this insult. I have spoken a lot of times about nazi crimes, never denied them, palliated them or excused them. I will report you now.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:24 AM   #208

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E.g "Kronika Polska Stanislawa Chwalczewskiego,starosty kobrynskiego dziedzica Raskowskiego pisana 1549."
It is little bit past Mid Age but it will do as an example.
its reneissance, not medieval times


Quote:
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True, the literature in Polish starts to flourish in the Renaissance period... but I mentioned already the Latin Chronicle of Greater Poland from 1295 where the name of the land is mentioned as "regnum Czechorum quit et Bohemi" (kingdom of Czechs who are also called Bohemians").
Good point.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:26 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
I don't said it can't AFAIR, but it shouldn't. I explained why.


Yes, Czech was reduced after the 30y-war and as well protestantism. Among those who were expelled were as well not only Czechs, but german protestants, too. You described the situation in Bohemia quite well, so how would you like to call Bohemia under Austrian rule? Czech kingdom, too? That#s why i think Bohemian as neutral term is much better.


Yes, but the same as above. Bohemian is not exclusive. So one can use it from the early Czech times to the modern era.

Perhaps we leave these discussion aside. When I made my statement, I didn'texpect it would cause such trouble.
Ok, let´s leave it, we can agree to disagree.

But Bohemian is exclusive. If we use only the word Bohemian, then it looks like the Czech Republic has not much to do with it (it also makes the use of the term Czech exlusive, but in different sense: and as I pointed out, the differentiation between Czech and Bohemian is a construct of German nationalists, and admittedly also by a small group of Bohemian bi-national idealists, of the 19th century), although it is a natural continuation of the statehood of the Crown (like the Republic of Poland is the continuation of the Polish kingdom, and the French Republic is the continuation of the Kingdom of France, Hungary of the Kingdom of Hungary, etc). I have no problem to describe the entire history of the state bot as Czech state as well as Bohemian state (because in Middle Ages the terms were synonymous, and I refuse to adopt the 19th century artificial differentiation), and I do not feel there is anything particularly nationalistic about it. Maybe we should just call it Bohemian Republic in English and the problem is solved :-).
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:31 AM   #210

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Im looking for official latin titulature of Jagiellon kings of Czechs and Hungary, cant find it. Im talking about those two, who were of Polish origin:

Vladislaus_II_of_Bohemia_and_Hungary Vladislaus_II_of_Bohemia_and_Hungary


Louis_II_of_Bohemia Louis_II_of_Bohemia
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