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Old December 13th, 2012, 07:17 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Czechicus View Post
When all the titles were used, Hungary came first, because as a kingdom, it was older than Bohemia (which was only a duchy earlier).
yes, thats why in the titulature of Polish king Władysław IV, his title of ruler of Russia was only "Grand Duke of Moscow" and it was the last of his titles as no one has recognised Moscow as "tsardom" or "empire" and it was after all the catholic states in the diplomatic queue
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Old December 13th, 2012, 07:42 AM   #222

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bohemian is not a creation of 19th century. it is the title of that country for more than 2000 years. As you said, Bohemian and Czech can be exchanged. But as we agreed, let's talk about this kingdom and not quarrel about the term.
Hmph, so Bohemia is the Czech Kingdom... but look at this 19th c. illustration of "king of Bohemia" in Sherlock Holmes' "Scandal in Bohemia":

Click the image to open in full size.

As far as I remember, according to Conan Doyle the guy (king) was supposed to be wearing shiny red boots (!), a " rich astrakhan coat" (!) and generally "give off an air of barbaric opulence" (So much for British perception of these weird lands )

Actually that sounds way more like Hungary - or even Poland for that matter - the traditional 17thc. male costume of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth had a strongly Turkish flavour.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 07:56 AM   #223
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And we have the same, we call ourselves magyar, while most foreign languages call us and the country Hungary or related terms. And Czechoslovaks and Yugoslav revisionist historians after world war one also started to make distinction between Uhersko for pre-1918 and Mad'arsko for the post 1918 Hungary. )
That is because Hungarians tend to consider Hungary only heir to anything what ever came out of Kingdom of Hungary. Be it people, culture or geography. This started already in 19th ct. when Hungarian elites declared everybody living in Hungary as ethnic Magyar and started to rename all non Hungarian places.

Example is Slovak coat of arms. It was part of coat of arms of Kingdom of Hungary. Hungarians often declare that Slovaks "stole" it from Hungarians. Similarly according to many Hungarians, Slovaks "stole" national anthem from them, because it is based on melody of Slovak folk song which one Hungarian composer collected and recorded while collecting folk songs of Kingdom of Hungary. That Slovak anthem was written before composer was born does not seem to confuse them. And there are many other examples. In fact many Hungarians believe Slovaks "stole" land on which they live from Hungarians.

Last edited by arras; December 13th, 2012 at 08:06 AM.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 08:03 AM   #224
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One more thing, Hungarian kingdom is in many Slavic languages (Slovak, Czech, probably south Slavic languages too) called "Uhorsko/Uhersko" or "Uhry". Likewise Austro-Hungaria was and still is called "Rakúsko-Uhorsko" or "Rakousko-Uhersko" (in Czech).

However Hungaria and Hungarians themselves are and were called Madarsko, Madari (from Magyar).

So there is clear distinction between Hungarian Kingdom and modern Hungaria itself in spoken Slavic.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #225
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Hmph, so Bohemia is the Czech Kingdom... but look at this 19th c. illustration of "king of Bohemia" in Sherlock Holmes' "Scandal in Bohemia":

Click the image to open in full size.

As far as I remember, according to Conan Doyle the guy (king) was supposed to be wearing shiny red boots (!), a " rich astrakhan coat" (!) and generally "give off an air of barbaric opulence" (So much for British perception of these weird lands )

Actually that sounds way more like Hungary - or even Poland for that matter - the traditional 17thc. male costume of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth had a strongly Turkish flavour.
I loved sir Conan Doyle and his stories during highschool. I loved Basrkerville dog movie with Glynis Barber. But yes this is part of unreal western pic. It is even worse...i saw several movies located to Czech where Czechs speak in Russian, wearing Russian uniforms etc... tell it to the Czechs.

Hollywood is master in history confusion . Look the Braveheart where Wallace has a relation with the French princess which was actually 3 years old when he died. I remember a journalist asked Gibson how is it possible to change the history in the movie and he answered like: "They all are dead!"
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Old December 13th, 2012, 09:05 AM   #226
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I don't think we should hijack this topic for another Hungarian-Slovak topic, but fact: the distinction between Uhorsko and Madjarsko in country names is an artifical post ww1 invention in Czech-Slovak and Serbo-Croatian, (not found in other languages, be it Slavic, or Germanic, Romance...) when they had to write new historical narratives for the newly born states. When Bratislava and Sturovo were also invented. :P Regarding the evil civic nationalists of 19th century Hungary, there were also settlement name changes (and restorings of old names) but of course it is just anti-Hungarian fantasy that all were changed (just cross the border or look at a map to see, we have plenty of place names of non-Hungarian origin). Anyways sure we could also debate 23 pages about it as others about Bohemia vs Czech

Last edited by Tulun; December 13th, 2012 at 09:20 AM.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 09:18 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Czechicus View Post
When all the titles were used, Hungary came first, because as a kingdom, it was older than Bohemia (which was only a duchy earlier).
Then actually i think Croatia should come first among the titles But it had subordinate role as it was permanently attached to the crown of Hungary.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #228

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
I loved sir Conan Doyle and his stories during highschool. I loved Basrkerville dog movie with Glynis Barber. But yes this is part of unreal western pic. It is even worse...i saw several movies located to Czech where Czechs speak in Russian, wearing Russian uniforms etc... tell it to the Czechs.
Yes I know I love Sherlock Holmes - and it's always hillarious to read his accounts of anything releating central Europe: creepy professors in Prague selling weird serums which turn venerable Oxbridge professors into chimpanzees and other dark secrets of these antipodes where vampires and Russian countesses roam.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:45 AM   #229
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Yes I know I love Sherlock Holmes - and it's always hillarious to read his accounts of anything releating central Europe: creepy professors in Prague selling weird serums which turn venerable Oxbridge professors into chimpanzees and other dark secrets of these antipodes where vampires and Russian countesses roam.

I have seen some creepy movie about evil chemicians manufacturing a poisonous gas in subway which caused local homeless went mad or something like that. I was scared so much of their masks as a kid that movie kicked me to go to library and read all Holmes stories and also Lost World from the same author to get next load of the fear.

Now i downloaded all episodes of the new Sherlock Holmes TV series and it was also pretty amazing.

But maybe Doyle was correct about creepy professors from Prague.
At least my university professor of Latin was really creepy lady and everyone was terrified of her.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
I don't think we should hijack this topic for another Hungarian-Slovak topic, but fact: the distinction between Uhorsko and Madjarsko in country names is an artifical post ww1 invention in Czech-Slovak and Serbo-Croatian, (not found in other languages, be it Slavic, or Germanic, Romance...) when they had to write new historical narratives for the newly born states.
You are wrong. Uhorský, Uhorsko is not invention of post ww1. It is historical name attested for example in Uherské Hradiště in Morava.
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