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Old December 15th, 2012, 01:26 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
BTW, Czechicus. You mentioned that an oldslavic text from the 10th century had Cechy. Are you able to quote this text, please?
St Wenceslas legend
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Old December 15th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #262

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Not to but in here, but shouldn't the debate about the name be easily settled by referring to whatever they called themselves during this time period?
The point is that the Czech lands, or Bohemia, whatever you like, were linguistically mixed since the middle ages. While the Czech-speaking people referred to themselves as Czechs, the German-speaking people - as far as I know - didn't do so, but self-identified as Bohemians, Germans, or Austrians. Of course, the terms also changed during the long history of that region.

Behind the argument about the exact term are the traumata through which both Czechs and Germans were going through in history, and that is in my opinion also the cause for the bad blood in this thread. For the Czechs, this is the feeling of being marginalized in their own country, with a progressive (albeit peaceful) Germanization that accelerated after the Thirty Years' War. There are many things which are probably unknown to many people, e.g. that Prague was in majority German-speaking until the mid-19th century, and that for example even prominent Czech figures were native German speakers (e.g. the composer Friedrich Smetana). For the German-speaking people, the trauma was finding themselves in a foreign state after 1918, where they were in contrast to the Czechs (and the Slovaks) not accepted as a constitutive nation. The Munich Agreement, the occupation of the Czech lands, the massacres of WWII, and finally, the bloody expulsion of 3 million German-speaking people have set the stage for decades of misunderstandings and mistrust between Czechs and Germans.

Today, the fear of the Czechs is probably still that these 3 million and their children will at some point come back and claim their property, or that history will be distorted by declaring Czechs as perpetrators and Germans as victims. The fear of the Germans is that their role in the history of that region will be distorted by portraying them as foreign invaders, who stayed merely as guests on foreign land for seven centuries and were rightfully deported or killed after 1945.

This was mainly off-topic in regard to the thread title, but seeing all this ongoing discussion I just had to mention the elephant in the room.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 02:06 AM   #263
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The point is that the Czech lands, or Bohemia, whatever you like, were linguistically mixed since the middle ages. While the Czech-speaking people referred to themselves as Czechs, the German-speaking people - as far as I know - didn't do so, but self-identified as Bohemians, Germans, or Austrians. Of course, the terms also changed during the long history of that region.

Behind the argument about the exact term are the traumata through which both Czechs and Germans were going through in history, and that is in my opinion also the cause for the bad blood in this thread. For the Czechs, this is the feeling of being marginalized in their own country, with a progressive (albeit peaceful) Germanization that accelerated after the Thirty Years' War. There are many things which are probably unknown to many people, e.g. that Prague was in majority German-speaking until the mid-19th century, and that for example even prominent Czech figures were native German speakers (e.g. the composer Friedrich Smetana). For the German-speaking people, the trauma was finding themselves in a foreign state after 1918, where they were in contrast to the Czechs (and the Slovaks) not accepted as a constitutive nation. The Munich Agreement, the occupation of the Czech lands, the massacres of WWII, and finally, the bloody expulsion of 3 million German-speaking people have set the stage for decades of misunderstandings and mistrust between Czechs and Germans.

Today, the fear of the Czechs is probably still that these 3 million and their children will at some point come back and claim their property, or that history will be distorted by declaring Czechs as perpetrators and Germans as victims. The fear of the Germans is that their role in the history of that region will be distorted by portraying them as foreign invaders, who stayed merely as guests on foreign land for seven centuries and were rightfully deported or killed after 1945.

This was mainly off-topic in regard to the thread title, but seeing all this ongoing discussion I just had to mention the elephant in the room.
I would say that your description is correct, but I have to add that Prague could be described as German-speaking in the mid-19th century only because the Austrian authorities recorded the "language used" as opposed to the "mother tongue" (and German was not a native language of Smetana, but the language of his education). Since 1860s, ie since elections were held, Prague was dominated by ethnic Czech parties, which demonstrates where the majorities were... Around 1900, there were 7% German speakers in the city. It was not due to the assimilation or immigration only, but mainly to the fact that education in the native language became widely available to the Czechs and the social status increased so that the Czech native speakers didn't see any significant advantage to use German as their language of choice anymore.

But while these circumstances add to the emotionality of the debate, it shouldn't lead us away from the historical facts.

It was also in the 19th century when the word "Tscheche" in German emerged (it was used before only exceptionally in German) to distinguish between "Bohemians" and "Czechs". Before that, Bohemian was synonymous with Czech (Bohemian language being the Czech language, and Bohemians being Czechs), and this can be documented by myriads of documents (I quoted some, and I tried to choose the non-Czech ones, like Greek, Latin, and medieval German) and nobody in academic circles would seriously doubt it. In Western languages, the derivates from the Latin designation Bohemia were mostly used, in the native language and in most Eastern languages, the words using the root Czech were used, but it was the same.

Last edited by Czechicus; December 15th, 2012 at 02:25 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 02:59 AM   #264

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St Wenceslas legend
More precise would have been helpful. nevertheless thanks. You probably mean the prvni staroslovenska legenda o.sv. Vaclavu? She had indeed Chech in the modern translation. Is it "czech" in the originals too? The II. staroslovenska legenda o svatem Vaclavu has Bohemus. All Latin versions have Boemus or Bohemus, too. Even kosmas of prague has not the Czech patronym Cech, but Boemus. But I don't want to restart this discussion. The term Czech would be interesting for a Czech ethnogenesis.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:03 AM   #265
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More precise would have been helpful. nevertheless thanks. You probably mean the prvni staroslovenska legenda o.sv. Vaclavu? She had indeed Chech in the modern translation. Is it "czech" in the originals too? The II. staroslovenska legenda o svatem Vaclavu has Bohemus. All Latin versions have Boemus or Bohemus, too. Even kosmas of prague has not the Czech patronym Cech, but Boemus. But I don't want to restart this discussion. The term Czech would be interesting for a Czech ethnogenesis.
Yes, I meant the 1st Slavonic legend; both the 1st and the 2nd Old Church Slavonic legends use "Czech" in the original. And Cosmas was writing in Latin - of course he uses Boemus.

Last edited by Czechicus; December 15th, 2012 at 03:23 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:24 AM   #266

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Yes, I meant the 1st Slavonic legend; both the 1st and the 2nd Old Church Slavonic legends use Czech in the original. And Cosmas was writing in Latin - of course he uses Boemus.
"use Czech" means used the Czech language or means the use of the term "Czech" in it?
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:37 AM   #267
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"use Czech" means used the Czech language or means the use of the term "Czech" in it?
the term "Czech" in it, the language was Old Church Slavonic
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #268
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A Czech-Latin dictionary from the 14th century; I am quoting it because it translates Czech as Bohemus into Latin, so it´s not off topic, but it´s also somehow funny to see how dictionaries were conceived back then!

Czloviek
homo, Svevus ssvab, fris Friso czechque Bohemus
926. Krzestyan Cristianus, sass Saxo pohanque paganus,
927. Hrzieczstvo Grecismus, krziestyanstvo cristianismus
928. Et Bavarus Bavor, zid Hebreus, dico Gigas obr.
929. Iud Iudeus, Arabs rabyenyn, spido Ducz, Sabeus Sabss,
930. Nyemecz Theutunicus, kaczierz hereticus, dacze Dacus,
931. Missnyenyn Misnensis, chod agrestus, stirk Stiriensis,
932. Australis rakusicz, ssapor ethnicus, Anglicus englicz,
933. Grecus Rzek, laicus lyden. est Durinkque Duríncus.
934. Almanus bolener, wlach Galicus, Ungarus vher,
935. Rzyman Romanus, prapohan sit Samaritanus,
936. Rute[n]us rusyenyn dic Ethiopesque murzenyn.
937. Barbarus est lytven, Caldeus dico przihorpen
938. Et Coriten korutan, chlomyenyn phariseus,
939. Lytvyene Saracení, zlosskrw euera, prusse Pruteni,
940. Srbyenyn Charvatus, frank Franco, kipsen Canenus.

Last edited by Czechicus; December 15th, 2012 at 04:02 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 04:55 AM   #269

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the term "Czech" in it, the language was Old Church Slavonic
yes, it was in Old Church Slavonic, that's why I was not sure what you mean. The II. staroslovenska legenda o svatem Vaclavu has Boemia, see "Od samých zajisté obyvatel země bývá kraj ten zván Boemia." and Čechy, see "Zdaž bych já neuměl s vámi Čechy na komoni nalézt protivníky naše?"
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Old December 15th, 2012, 05:10 AM   #270

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"Od samých zajisté obyvatel země bývá kraj ten zván Boemia." and Čechy, see "Zdaž bych já neuměl s vámi Čechy na komoni nalézt protivníky naše?"
That is clearly not Old Church Slavonic. You have some later Czech translation.
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