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Old December 15th, 2012, 06:34 AM   #271
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From the beginning of the 1st Old Church Slavonic legend about St Wenceslas (10th century):

Бъістъ жє кънѧѕь єтєръ въ Чєсѣхъ имєньмь Братиславъ, жєна жє ѥго нарицаѥма Драгомира |

rough transliteration into the Latin script:

Byst že knedz v Česěch imenem Vratislav, žena že jego naricajema Dragomira....

and the translation into English:

There was a Duke in Bohemia named Vratislav, and his wife was called Drahomíra

(Česěch is the locative case of the nominative Čechy, meaning Bohemia or the Czech Land)
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by arras View Post
That is clearly not Old Church Slavonic. You have some later Czech translation.
yes, I know. That's why i asked for the original source.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:50 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Grimald View Post
The point is that the Czech lands, or Bohemia, whatever you like, were linguistically mixed since the middle ages. While the Czech-speaking people referred to themselves as Czechs, the German-speaking people - as far as I know - didn't do so, but self-identified as Bohemians, Germans, or Austrians. Of course, the terms also changed during the long history of that region.

Behind the argument about the exact term are the traumata through which both Czechs and Germans were going through in history, and that is in my opinion also the cause for the bad blood in this thread. For the Czechs, this is the feeling of being marginalized in their own country, with a progressive (albeit peaceful) Germanization that accelerated after the Thirty Years' War. There are many things which are probably unknown to many people, e.g. that Prague was in majority German-speaking until the mid-19th century, and that for example even prominent Czech figures were native German speakers (e.g. the composer Friedrich Smetana). For the German-speaking people, the trauma was finding themselves in a foreign state after 1918, where they were in contrast to the Czechs (and the Slovaks) not accepted as a constitutive nation. The Munich Agreement, the occupation of the Czech lands, the massacres of WWII, and finally, the bloody expulsion of 3 million German-speaking people have set the stage for decades of misunderstandings and mistrust between Czechs and Germans.

Today, the fear of the Czechs is probably still that these 3 million and their children will at some point come back and claim their property, or that history will be distorted by declaring Czechs as perpetrators and Germans as victims. The fear of the Germans is that their role in the history of that region will be distorted by portraying them as foreign invaders, who stayed merely as guests on foreign land for seven centuries and were rightfully deported or killed after 1945.

This was mainly off-topic in regard to the thread title, but seeing all this ongoing discussion I just had to mention the elephant in the room.
Very reasonable post, i can agree with 95% of it. I cannot agree Czech wished the Germans were killed. Kills never came from official authorities. Kills were caused by individuals, by anti nazi Germans (returning from concentration camps), by Czech victims, by Russian soldiers and by other individuals. Personally, i regret any innocent life no matter if German or Czech lost during these event.

Next fact is we all want peace and good relations in the new Europe which is much more tolerant today but both sides: as Czechs so as Germans must find a ways to not reevoke old wounds again. Truth is Czechs have no any demands but demands still coming from Sudeten German side what is really not helpful because we can feel now the explanation of history is changing for one side what is definitely not correct.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 02:36 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Very reasonable post, i can agree with 95% of it. I cannot agree Czech wished the Germans were killed. Kills never came from official authorities. Kills were caused by individuals, by anti nazi Germans (returning from concentration camps), by Czech victims, by Russian soldiers and by other individuals. Personally, i regret any innocent life no matter if German or Czech lost during these event.
Good myth, but untrue.

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Next fact is we all want peace and good relations in the new Europe which is much more tolerant today but both sides: as Czechs so as Germans must find a ways to not reevoke old wounds again. Truth is Czechs have no any demands but demands still coming from Sudeten German side what is really not helpful because we can feel now the explanation of history is changing for one side what is definitely not correct.
a) what further demands should Czechs have
b) if you and Edward hadn't derailed my thread, so that it was closed, you could have learned more about the expulsion.

Last edited by beorna; December 15th, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 05:20 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
Good myth, but untrue.


a) what further demands should Czechs have
what about prahistoric slavic lands which are part of Germany? Im still waiting for the return of Lausits, Meissen, Barlen and Rugen
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Old December 15th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #276
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Just to complement all the original texts in Old Church Slavonic, Latin, Byzantine Greek, Middle High German, Old Czech, etc, which I quoted in my previous posts and which use the word Czech when describing the Bohemian/Czech state and spanning from the 10th century to the modern era, I'll add one example from the Habsburg era: when Charles VI was crowned king of Czechia (and yes, it's really the same as Bohemia ;-) ), in 1723, the authorities published a booklet commemorating this occasion called "Gaudium Universae Czechiae" in Latin, meaning "Joy of the Entire Czechia". Even Habsburgs joined the Czech nationalist conspiracy ;-). But seriously: the word Czechia was frequently used in the Latin texts in the Renaissance and especially Barock era, as a poetic equivalent of Bohemia.

I quit this discussion.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 03:46 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Mosquito View Post
what about prahistoric slavic lands which are part of Germany? Im still waiting for the return of Lausits, Meissen, Barlen and Rugen
If Sorbians want to be independent in the lausitz, they can do this. And the rest we give back, when Poles have handed out Poland to Vandals, Rugians and Goths
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Old December 16th, 2012, 04:51 AM   #278

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosquito View Post
what about prahistoric slavic lands which are part of Germany? Im still waiting for the return of Lausits, Meissen, Barlen and Rugen
Your imagination is still much too limited.

Actually, I am very interested in geography and the origin of local names - and I can tell you that the area of Slavic settlement in today's Germany may be larger than you think. In contrast to the Germanic tribes that settled in today's Poland, e.g. around the Vistula region, the Slavic tribes in the West left many relics in local names which makes it possible to trace their settlements.

The area of Germania slavica comprised of course many areas East of the Elbe, e.g. Pomerania (Stettin), Silesia (Breslau), Brandenburg (Berlin, Potsdam), Mecklenburg (Rostock, Schwerin) and parts of Saxony (Görlitz, Bautzen). However, this is not all: Much of the area North of the Elbe (the Eastern half of today's state of Schleswig-Holstein) was also settled by Slavs, with clear evidence of Slavic names like Lübeck or Eutin. There is even a region West of the Elbe in today's state of Lower Saxony that was once inhabited by Slavs: the Wendland, with such clearly Slavic local names as Lüchow. Also in the South, the area of Germania Slavica extended significantly West to the Elbe in both the modern states of Saxony (e.g. Leipzig, Chemnitz) and Thuringia (e.g. Drognitz). Curiously, there is even a part of the modern state of Bavaria (Bavaria slavica) which shows evidence of Slavic names (ending in -itz or -gast, or using the prefix Wend-/ Wind-/ Windisch-), comprising the regions of Upper Franconia and the Oberpfalz (Pegnitz, Redwitz, Marktleugast, Windischeschenbach).

Considering the many Roman names of cities in the West (Cologne, Trier, Mainz) and South of Germany (Augsburg, Regensburg) that should be ceded to either France or Italy, there will not be much left of Germany.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 05:12 AM   #279

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Here is a map showing local names of Slavic origins in the state of Bavaria. Actually, most Slavic names are not in Bavaria proper, but in Franconia.

Click the image to open in full size.

Austria is also full of local names of Slavic origin, with the most important example being that of Graz, the second most populous city in Austria:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 06:07 AM   #280
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Yes, Grimald. For example Dresden is also originally a Slavic city.
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