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Old March 8th, 2017, 05:33 AM   #21
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Well, I knew a girl from Cork she was Spanish Origin from 16th Century, and she told me De Valera was not the only Irish from Spanish Origin.

In this page (in Spanish) you find Spaniards in Ireland in 16th Century... The Captain Don Pedro Blanco, that was into the O´Neill Clan (behind the Count of Tyronne) ranks and married with a O´Neall Clan woman. (The O´Neill clan served later in the Catholic King´s Army in Flanders and Germany).
Don Francisco de Cuellar that landed in Grange, Sligo County, today there is the Cuellar´s Trail.Also they were Spaniards wit O´Rouker in Leitrim. Still in Kilmohere, the old people can told you the history of how a group of Spaniards, under Don Francisco de Cuellar defended the Castle of Roscloghe that belonged to the MacClancy´s Clan for 17 days till English run away. Cuéllar "socialized" with several Irish women. As adventure, he lived several months in Ireland, later he was in Scotland (supported by the Scottish Catholic), he went through Netherland and finally he arrived to Flanders where he rejoined the Army. He was captain and he fought under Alejandro Farnesio´s command and later served in the Spanish Garrison in Paris. Cuéllar died in America, being an old man.

Last edited by martin76; March 8th, 2017 at 05:42 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2017, 07:14 AM   #22

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaeva View Post
There have always been dark-haired Celts.

The Silures, a Celtic tribe who lived in southwest Wales around the time of the Roman conquest of Britain, were famous for their black hair.



Red hair has always been present in the British isles as well, or at least as long as people have been writing about it. The Caledonians were as famous for being gingers as the Silures were for being dark-haired.

In short, anything about Vikings or Spanish sailors or any other new arrival in the last 2,000 years bringing a particular hair color to the British Isles is a popular myth.
Totally agree with you Scaeva. I am not saying that no sailor/soldier from the "Spanish Armada" Did not find himself in some isolated part of Argyll or Donegal but there genetic foot print would be almost impossible to detect now. As you say about the "Silures" in what is now Wales. They were according to Tacitus dark and swarthy and reminded him of Celto/Iberians he had encountered in Spain also that the Caledonians his father in-law Agricola met around the "Tay area" were large bodied and red haired and reminded him of Germans he encountered on the Rhine Frontier. I think that both the Silures and the Caledonians shared a common Celtic culture though probably not a common ethnicity. People have probably been sailing up over the Bay of Biscay to Ireland, Wales and Cornwall for perhaps millennia and likewise over the North Sea from Jutland and Frisia long before the Anglo-Saxons or Norse Invasions.
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Old March 9th, 2017, 09:57 AM   #23

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We know Armada soldiers who ran aground were used in the feuding between Lachlan Mor Maclean and Angus Macdonald of Dunyveg (the Batman and Joker of a Renaissance Mad Max universe...), but they were sent home. There's no trace of their descendants in the Hebrides, except in folklore. Many of them also weren't Spanish: there were large contingents of Croats and Italians.
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Old March 9th, 2017, 11:11 AM   #24

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Click the image to open in full size. Rota da Invencível Armada.
Portuguese ships involved.
The following ships of the Portuguese armada (Portugal squadron), built in Portugal and owned by the Crown of Portugal, participated in the battle:

Galleons

São Martinho 48 cannons (Leader of the whole Armada, and Leader of section [Portuguese squadron], Duque de Medina-Sidonia)
São João 50 cannons (Vice-leader of the whole Navy [Admiral of the Armada] and Vice-leader of section [Squadron of Portugal])
St. Mark 33 cannons (Dom Diogo Pimentel or Penafiel) - bound to come to earth, damaged, about 8 August near Ostend.
São Felipe 40 cannons (Don Francisco de Toledo) - came ashore on 8 August between Nieupoort and Ostend, captured by the Dutch August 9
São Luis 38 cannons
St. Matthew 34 cannons - land came on 8 August between Nieupoort and Ostend, captured by the Dutch on August 9
Santiago 24 cannons
52 guns (or San Francesco ex-Levantine [ex-squadron of the Levant], Niccolo Bartoli) - Italian nautical integrated in the squadron of galleons of Portugal.
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Bernard 21 guns
Zabra Augusta 13 Cannons
Zabra Julia 14 Cannons
Three great Portuguese galleons previously chosen were dismissed, two for their state and antiquity, and one that went to the East.

Welsh:

Captaincy (5 cannons)
Princess (5 cannons)
Diana (5 cannons)
Bazana (5 cannons)
If there were any Spanish pressmen before, also hear Portuguese pressmen.

Click the image to open in full size.
Date 29 July 1588
Local Channel, near Gravelines, France
Finished English victory
Belligerents
England England Royal Standard of Felipe II.svg Iberian Union:
Banner of arms crown of Castille Habsbourg style.svg Kingdom of Spain
Flag Portugal (1578) .svg Kingdom of Portugal
Flag of the Kingdom of Naples.svg Kingdom of Naples
Commander
Charles Howard
Francis Drake Duke of Medina-Sidonia
Forces
197 vessels (34 warships and 163 merchant ships)
30,000 men
Low
50-100 dead
400 injured
8 ships sunk 600 dead
397 captured
800 wounded
5 sunken ships
(51 sunken ships and 20,000 dead in a storm)
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Old March 10th, 2017, 01:02 AM   #25
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Well, I´ve read (and everybody can read) the Irish DNA and Spain


Click the image to open in full size.

So, what´s is difficult to know if the DNA connections between Ireland and Spain came from Pre-historic and Proto-Historic times or also they came from 1588.

Ian Gibson, an Irish historian have written about a "common" ancestor between Irish and Spaniards (but not from 1588) older. (Not only in the Irish legends it is evidenced the link between Peninsula and Ireland).
For example, Gibson wrote about strange similarities between the Irish Language and the Castilian language (in verbs and structures).. and he thinks the common ancenstor was or the Keltois (Celts) or still sooner, the Proto-Celts

Ian Gibson

For Gibson, the keltois, the Celtics, the Celts weren´t only in Galicia but in most of Spain and the Celtic substratrum is in the Spanish and Irish People.
For example, Gibson say there are more connections between the Irish language and the Spanish language than between Irish language and any other "Latin" language...(more linked with Castilian language than with French one.. why?)
He is talking about Irish language (Not English language in Ireland but Irish one).

I didn´t know Edmund de Valera (a Irishman from Murcia) wrote Ireland is Spain without Sun and Spain is Ireland with Mountains. The "Psique"... not very different between the Irish and Spanish Mind... what I don´t know if the origin of Spanish-Irish Relations come from 1588, from 1100 or from 10.000 BC....
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Old March 10th, 2017, 06:58 PM   #26

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Quote:
Well, I´ve read (and everybody can read) the Irish DNA and Spain
Or, accurately, Irish DNA and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers that moved across Europe - including Spain - from east to west. There was no 'Spain' in 6000BC.
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Old March 11th, 2017, 01:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domnall Ballach View Post
Or, accurately, Irish DNA and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers that moved across Europe - including Spain - from east to west. There was no 'Spain' in 6000BC.
And not Britain and not Ireland.. but for sure there were "Great Britain" and Ireland and for sure there was Spain... becase 6.000 BC is exactly (and literally) in this second in Geological time... You can be sure both Great Britain and Spain existed physically 6.000 BC (and 60.000 BC)...not as countries, but yes as Islands and Peninsula...(although Spain was an Island before crashing with Europe!!!

Diariovasco.com | EDICIÓN IMPRESA - Asier Hilario, doctor en geologa: En la rocas se leen 50 millones de aos de la historia de la Tierra

Spain has been more time being an Island than being a Peninsula.. in fact, the crash between Spain and Europe took place only..yes, ONLY 40 millions years ago (almost yesterday).
And yes, Domnall Ballach, 6.000 years ago... literally in this second.. Spain and Britain existed!!!! (more or less as today).
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Old March 12th, 2017, 04:27 AM   #28
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This is what the 14th century Scots said about their own origins. Presumably from much earlier oral traditions.

Quote:
Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown.
They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous.
Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.
The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since.
In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.
The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith.
Nor would He have them confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles - by calling, though second or third in rank - the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter's brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron forever.
Full Text of the Declaration of Arbroath, 1320
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Old March 12th, 2017, 01:34 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Moros View Post
Apart from hearsay and tradition, what evidence is there that shipwrecked sailors and soldiers from the Spanish Armada of 1588 produced descendants in Ireland or Scotland?

How early are the traditions? Has there been any genetic markers detected? Does archaeology provide any corroborating evidence?
No, there isn't any concrete evidence of sailors and soldiers from the Spanish Armada of 1588 to have reached Ireland or Scotland. Though there are murmurs and myths going on here and there. Romanticizing goes on about "dark-haired" Irish/Scottish to be some sort of "Spaniard", this is only a myth. The most common eye colour among Irish and Scottish people is blue, found in over half of their respective populations as a whole, while less than 20% of Irish and Scottish have brown eyes. At least 10% of the Irish/Scottish have red hair. Less than 3% of the people of Ireland have pure black hair, most of the dark hair there is well within the dark brown category. Over three-quarters of the Irish have a skin type which is prone to freckling and doesn't tan or tans with difficulty which is very fair.
On the other hand, the most common eye colour in Spain is obviously brown by far and less than 15% of Spaniards have blue eyes! The ratio for black hair hovers around 25-30%, less than 10% are blond-haired and less than 1% of Spaniards as a whole have red hair.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 01:51 PM   #30
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Irish and Scottish folks are definitely not Spaniards.

Click the image to open in full size.

Red hair + blue eyes (also green) combination is an Irish/Scottish trademark, I'd say, is uncommon in Spain as a whole (Less than 1%!).

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by occidentalis; March 12th, 2017 at 01:54 PM.
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